gregintenn
Member
Actually, he attempted to sell a lying cop a gun, which I believe is considered entrapment.
First arrest made under NY SAFE law
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Actually, he attempted to sell a lying cop a gun, which I believe is considered entrapment.
DigiRebel
Member
Hmm.
The first gun was sold to an undercover just days after the law was passed and signed... but no arrest was made until 2 months later, when the undercover contacted him again for another rifle, and this time mentions that he's a convicted felon?
I dunno... something smells in the whole issue. Honestly, if they had a case why didn't they arrest him for it 2 months ago after the initial sale? I have a feeling that they went back to push the "I'm a convicted felon" thing after the fact so that they had a case of some sort.
There is no mention in the article about how the seller originally let the officer know that he had a weapon for sale... The first case, I am guessing, probably isn't entrapment. The second... well, if the officer contacted the seller looking for another weapon, and then cooked up the whole, "I'm a felon" nonsense... There is at least room for a the question there.
That said the seller WAS an idiot for selling when the other guy said he was a felon... still the article paints the whole thing as the po-po getting an evil illegal gun off the streets, not as the police stopping a person who doesn't care who he sells weapons to being stopped... to read the article the mention of the "felon" thing is only a blip compared to stopping the sale of weapons banned by the SAFE act.
Yeah, it looks bad for legal gun owners and dealers, its meant to. Most newspapers aren't interested in presenting the story as facts, but in presenting their political views confirmed by some of the facts.
The first gun was sold to an undercover just days after the law was passed and signed... but no arrest was made until 2 months later, when the undercover contacted him again for another rifle, and this time mentions that he's a convicted felon?
I dunno... something smells in the whole issue. Honestly, if they had a case why didn't they arrest him for it 2 months ago after the initial sale? I have a feeling that they went back to push the "I'm a convicted felon" thing after the fact so that they had a case of some sort.
There is no mention in the article about how the seller originally let the officer know that he had a weapon for sale... The first case, I am guessing, probably isn't entrapment. The second... well, if the officer contacted the seller looking for another weapon, and then cooked up the whole, "I'm a felon" nonsense... There is at least room for a the question there.
That said the seller WAS an idiot for selling when the other guy said he was a felon... still the article paints the whole thing as the po-po getting an evil illegal gun off the streets, not as the police stopping a person who doesn't care who he sells weapons to being stopped... to read the article the mention of the "felon" thing is only a blip compared to stopping the sale of weapons banned by the SAFE act.
Yeah, it looks bad for legal gun owners and dealers, its meant to. Most newspapers aren't interested in presenting the story as facts, but in presenting their political views confirmed by some of the facts.
gregintenn
Member
On this we can all agree.
Poodle Soup
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So the sex offenders trying to meet up with 12 year old girls and boys they meet online are not actually going after little girls and boys but after lying police.
He attempted to break the law (from the info given). You put a gun to someones head and pull the trigger but the round has a bad primer and does not go off so no big deal? No crime committed? The round was planted there so it someone else's fault right?
THESE are the gun owners that are making this whole messed up situation even worse.
Harrison
US Veteran
Nothing new here. Mayor Bloomberg had been sending NYPD investigators around the country to gun shows trying to entrap sellers into selling to an admitted felon. A couple of his investigators tried it at a GS in Texas and ended up in the pokey. When they showed their badges. they were informed, tough you are out of your jurisdiction. I understand the same thing occurred in Virginia and Arizona, with NYPD investigators.
brokenprism
US Veteran
You're going to see all kinds of entrapment under these laws -- it's too tempting to the authorities not to try to prove that we're all unprincipled. The simple solution is to never break a gun law if you value your gun rights. Recently a seller on GI wanted to ease the FFL transfer fee pain by sending me a Marlin 39 directly, and it was a tempting prospect for about 1/2 a second. Felony and loss of rights forever, or $35, hmmm... let me think.
Buffalohunter60
US Veteran
I have no sympathy for the seller. But an attorney is going to usde what ever he can to defend his client....and the fact that the Officer lied about being a felon, actually means that he did not really sell to a felon (even though he would have) ....it can become a sticking point and you never know how a Jury is going to react...I would vote to convict him if I was on the Jury.....but attorneys will wring this for all its worth depending on how much cash he has to defend himself. He was just plain wrong if we are getting the whole story but as one man said...I think there is a lot more that we do not know about this story.
jtpur
Member
Gee and all this time I thoight it was the Feds who regulated the sale of firearms. The Feds always tout that their laws are supreme to state laws. Since the guy was not a convicted felon what he said is not relevant.
RightWinger
Member
Folks please take the time and look up the legal definition of entrapment before you continue to misinform others with your "opinion" of entrapment. A LEO can lie to a person and it's not entrapment, with that being said do you think when an officer is UC buying dope he's entrapping someone? by many posters they would say he is because by their standards he is lying to a citizen. This is non-sense and a pathetic attempt to minimize this man's own stupidity. Yes I think the SAFE law is nonsense and if he soley violated that law I would be taking a different stance on this whole issue, but let's not try to blame LEO's for this idiot's poor choice he made.
The liquor agents in Texas must use an undercowver under age individual to secure an arrest and convictIon. The buyer is an actual minor, not someone who "says" they are a minor. Surely the NY state police can find a REAL felon to work undercover.
You can't fix stupid as far as the seller is concerned, but if you want an airtight case....Drug sales are not even the same situation.
If the only violation were to be sale to a "felon", the buyer UC had better be a real, convicted felon. Don'tcha think?
You can't fix stupid as far as the seller is concerned, but if you want an airtight case....Drug sales are not even the same situation.
If the only violation were to be sale to a "felon", the buyer UC had better be a real, convicted felon. Don'tcha think?
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DigiRebel
Member
The liquor agents in Texas must use an undercowver under age individual to secure an arrest and convictIon. The buyer is an actual minor, not someone who "says" they are a minor. Surely the NY state police can find a REAL felon to work undercover.
You can't fix stupid as far as the seller is concerned, but if you want an airtight case....Drug sales are not even the same situation.
If the only violation were to be sale to a "felon", the buyer UC had better be a real, convicted felon. Don'tcha think?
LOL... considering the morals and ethics of some of the folks involved in this kind of thing it's almost surprising that they don't have a few felons available for the task... that said, I think it'd be a bit tougher to pass a 45 year old undercover agent off as an under 21 minor for the Liquor Control Board. haha
BigCityChief
Member
This is not entrapment under the NYS Penal Law. Check out NY State Penal Law Section 40.50.
Delos
Member
The American Way
That one rifle had not only a pistol grip but also a bayonet lug.
Can you imagine if the drug gangs started having bayonet charges at each other?
And selling a gun in a restaurant? The actual transaction must have happened in the parking lot? If it is illegal to make deals in restaurants all politicians are in trouble.
Maybe he bribed him with a big gulp soda.
I am sure more must be coming. The seller must have also not shown a business license.
Now if they have tailed him smuggling in guns from another state this could be good. North Korea executes people for less than that.
Do not tell this perp he could get 7 years. Charge him with 20 crimes and offer to drop 19 if he will plead guilty to one and accept 10 years. It is the American way.
(I somehow doubt the new law changed anything).
That one rifle had not only a pistol grip but also a bayonet lug.
Can you imagine if the drug gangs started having bayonet charges at each other?
And selling a gun in a restaurant? The actual transaction must have happened in the parking lot? If it is illegal to make deals in restaurants all politicians are in trouble.
Maybe he bribed him with a big gulp soda.
I am sure more must be coming. The seller must have also not shown a business license.
Now if they have tailed him smuggling in guns from another state this could be good. North Korea executes people for less than that.
Do not tell this perp he could get 7 years. Charge him with 20 crimes and offer to drop 19 if he will plead guilty to one and accept 10 years. It is the American way.
(I somehow doubt the new law changed anything).
gregintenn
Member
I stand corrected. I still do not care for the "set up" scenerio. However, I'm sure there is much more to the story.
No, it isn't and the Supreme Court said it wasn't. It's called a " sting ", and the cement head who was gonna cell it to a convicted felon NEEDS to go to jail as he makes all decent, law abiding gun owners or sellers out to be crooks.
Buffalohunter60
US Veteran
As I believe this guy needs to go to jail, I am not an attorney but I will accept that its a sting and probably for reasons we do not know about. I am just saying that an attorney is going to argue that a crime was not committed because he did not sell the gun to a criminal and depending on the Jury...he may walk. I am not saying what the Cop did was wrong...I just think they should have used a real felon if they want to make it stick but then the question comes about...that also breaking the law and I guess an attorney could make an argument for that also. Our Justice system has a lot of problem and is not always Just as I am sure many LEO's see all the time. Sometimes innocent people go to jail....and sometimes the guilty go free (OJ Simpson comes to mind) The man was definately wrong and incredibly stupid on top of that to sell to a man that said he was a felon.....red flags would have gone off if he had even half a brain...no felon would ever admit that to someone he was trying to buy a gun from. I suspect the police knew that he was willing selling guns to felons and had no problem with it...hence doing what they did...thats the only thing that makes sence to me. People doing this make law abiding gun owners look bad and I hope he gets what he deserves.
On another note....I am not sure that being accused of domestic violence should cause you to lose your right to ever own a firearm because of the lying that goes on by scorned women and many men lie as well. Many innocent men have lost their right to have a firearm because of a lying woman...but thats getting off topic...sorry.
Poodle Soup
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The liquor agents in Texas must use an undercowver under age individual to secure an arrest and convictIon. The buyer is an actual minor, not someone who "says" they are a minor. Surely the NY state police can find a REAL felon to work undercover.
You can't fix stupid as far as the seller is concerned, but if you want an airtight case....Drug sales are not even the same situation.
If the only violation were to be sale to a "felon", the buyer UC had better be a real, convicted felon. Don'tcha think?
On the entrapment thing... Wouldnt it be entrapment if the police busted the person trying to buy for them for possession?
Good question.
That's a good question...and the answer is "no."
"Criminal intent" is a factor in such situations. e.g. LEO's can..and do...buy (and sell!) REAL drugs on occasion. No criminal intent thus no crime.
Though not exactly the same facts, that is why sometimes informants can possess drugs and other contraband without prosecution. With permission and supervision, of course.
Be safe.
That's a good question...and the answer is "no."
"Criminal intent" is a factor in such situations. e.g. LEO's can..and do...buy (and sell!) REAL drugs on occasion. No criminal intent thus no crime.
Though not exactly the same facts, that is why sometimes informants can possess drugs and other contraband without prosecution. With permission and supervision, of course.
Be safe.
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