USN Sword?

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mcnee229

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Coworker approached me wanting to know if I could tell him about this sword that was passed down to him. He has with it a certificate from its former owner for passing the equator dated 1920 and a framed photo of the USS Vestal.

I know nothing about these things, but I figure someone out there does, and I do know how to take pictures. I can't find anything on the web about the maker of the sword, B B Abraham & Co, Phila Pa, though I have found similar swords from other makers.

Click Picasa Web Albums - Scott McNeely - Sword@@AMEPARAM@@https://picasaweb.google.com/data/feed/base/user/112686254990516915215/albumid/5870092861118033665?alt=rss@@AMEPARAM@@112686254990516915215@@AMEPARAM@@5870092861118033665 to go to the Picasa album with a bunch more pictures.

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Anything you can tell us about this thing, including an approx value, would be much appreciated.

Scott
 
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Wellllllll...,
As you probably already know, that is a Model 1852 Officers Dress Sword. It is also an odd manufacturer. If I were you, I'd email one of the large auction houses. Or try posting on swordforum.com. Just because I've never heard of them...........;)
 
The United States Navy has had a long established ritual that is observed when crossing the equator for the first time. Those who have already crossed the equator are known as "shellbacks" those who have not crossed the equator are known as "pollywogs". Seems the pollywogs lord it over the shellbacks the day prior to crossing the equator. However revenge is swiftly and mercily dealt out by the shellbacks the day of the crossing. Like having one of the shellbacks do crosses on your hair with clippers. Swimming through a pool of leftover veggies from the messdecks, getting whacked in the butt with a section of firehose and last but not least having to kiss the belly of the royal baby (who just happened to be a full captain of the engineering dept) while it is throughly coated with grease and getting doused with the stream from a firehose. And yes I'm a shellback. I imagine many of the other Navy vets have participated in this time honored ritual. Go Navy. Frank
 
I never got to cross equator in my 4 years we were supposed to then things changed oh well next life lol!

EM3(SW)
 
I only see one photo, which should have been of the sword lengthwise. But I know what the Navy officers sword of 1852 looks like. I believe it remains the current model.

Isn't the USMC NCO sword similar? I know the USMC officer's sword is a Mameluke style, similar to that worn by British general officers. It was supposedly patterned after Stephen Decauter's (sp?) sword. Think of him defeating pirates at Tripoli, if the name seems vague.
 
I have one of those with riccaso markings of 'JR Gaunt & Son Limited Late Edward Thurkle London Birmingham"

I believe a lot of companys provided these swords and they were a private purchase thing. Can still purchase these today from various suppliers
 
Neat sword. Lots of good pics that someone with knowledge should be able to look at and give some great info.

Let us know what you find out!
 
Frank46 said:
The United States Navy has had a long established ritual that is observed when crossing the equator for the first time. Those who have already crossed the equator are known as "shellbacks" those who have not crossed the equator are known as "pollywogs". Seems the pollywogs lord it over the shellbacks the day prior to crossing the equator. However revenge is swiftly and mercily dealt out by the shellbacks the day of the crossing. Like having one of the shellbacks do crosses on your hair with clippers. Swimming through a pool of leftover veggies from the messdecks, getting whacked in the butt with a section of firehose and last but not least having to kiss the belly of the royal baby (who just happened to be a full captain of the engineering dept) while it is throughly coated with grease and getting doused with the stream from a firehose. And yes I'm a shellback. I imagine many of the other Navy vets have participated in this time honored ritual. Go Navy. Frank
Click to expand...

There are exactly two framed documents in my house that have any sentimental value; the first is my DD-1 and the other is my "Neptune Scroll".

"Imperium Neputni Regis"

Gunner

PS. Crossing the line as a Marine Staff NCO provides a multitude of hazing opportunities for our Navy bretheren. There are very few things a Master Cheif enjoys more than the initiation ceremony, particularly one that includes a few Marines. In spite of that................

Go Navy, Beat Army!!!
 
Texas Star said:
Isn't the USMC NCO sword similar? I know the USMC officer's sword is a Mameluke style, similar to that worn by British general officers.
Click to expand...

No. A naval Officer's sword is a cutlass design, nearly perfectly straight. A Marine Corps NCO Sword is similar to the scimitar, slightly less curved than the Army Officers sword and much less curved than a Mameluke. If memory serves the Army NCO sword is rapier, but I'm not certain.
 
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"I know the USMC officer's sword is a Mameluke style, similar to that worn by British general officers. It was supposedly patterned after Stephen Decauter's (sp?) sword. Think of him defeating pirates at Tripoli, if the name seems vague."

In 1859, the US Marine Corps adopted the US Army's Foot Officers sword for both officers and NCOs. In 1875, the Marine Corps went back to the Mameluke pattern for officers and the NCOs kept the Foot Officers pattern sword.

Lt Presley O'Bannon USMC was given a Mameluke sword for his service in Tripoli in the early 1800s. Thereafter, it became the standard pattern for officers, until 1859.
 
I don't have anything to add re: the sword, but I too, have had the priviledge of kissing the baby belly.Yum!
 
InfantryWeaponsOfficer said:
No. A naval Officer's sword is a rapier design, nearly perfectly straight. A Marine Corps NCO Sword is similar to the scimitar, slightly less curved than the Army Officers sword and much less curved than a Mameluke. If memory serves the Army NCO sword is also rapier, but I'm not certain.
Click to expand...

The official designation is a "cut and thrust" style blade. The Marine NCO saber is exactly that, a saber. The Navy sword is more of a brother to the 1852 Staff and Field Officers sword.

And yes, it is still the current issue, having changed little (if any) from 1852. Marlowe White is the current manufacturer, I believe, but the list of private purchase suppliers is huge. Mostly they come with Solingen blades and then private firms added the fixtures. The guard and pommel are made of brass and often gold plated. The grip is shagreen (sp) which is shark skin wrapped in gold wire. Altogether, a beautiful sword.

Oh yeah. There should have been an olive in that belly button.
 
InfantryWeaponsOfficer said:
No. A naval Officer's sword is a cutlass design, nearly perfectly straight. A Marine Corps NCO Sword is similar to the scimitar, slightly less curved than the Army Officers sword and much less curved than a Mameluke. If memory serves the Army NCO sword is rapier, but I'm not certain.
Click to expand...



Roger-

Respectfully, a cutlass is a different design, used by boarding parties, etc., but not a dress sword. The one in the OP is the current USN Officer's version, I'm almost sure. The cutlass is shorter and more curved. The hilt and guard are more crude, too.

The Mameluke design refers only to the hilt, the blade curve varying, although curved to one degree or the other. Basically, it is a scimitar but scimitars vary in curve and length.

I have a sword book by John Wilkinson-Latham and have another book on swords through the ages, and have examined a number of swords in collector-oriented gun shops. A high school friend had a M-1860 Light Cavalry Saber in his family, and I've handled the 1840 Heavy Cavalry version, too.

The sword that seemed most "me" is the British Infantry Officer's Model of 1897. The longer cavalry sword of 1908, copied by Patton, is too long to use well when unmounted.
Lt. Churchill mentioned the length of his cavalry sword when fighting unmounted in what is now Pakistan.
 
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Muley Gil said:
"I know the USMC officer's sword is a Mameluke style, similar to that worn by British general officers. It was supposedly patterned after Stephen Decauter's (sp?) sword. Think of him defeating pirates at Tripoli, if the name seems vague."

In 1859, the US Marine Corps adopted the US Army's Foot Officers sword for both officers and NCOs. In 1875, the Marine Corps went back to the Mameluke pattern for officers and the NCOs kept the Foot Officers pattern sword.

Lt Presley O'Bannon USMC was given a Mameluke sword for his service in Tripoli in the early 1800s. Thereafter, it became the standard pattern for officers, until 1859.
Click to expand...


I've handled the M-1850 Foot Officer's sword; didn't know that it was also used by Marines.

The Civil War NCO sword more nearly resembles a classic smallsword, not a longer rapier. Think sort of in terms of George Washington's inagural sword, not his heavy, more curved one seen in some paintings.
 
I wasn't in the Navy- but my Dad was a career CPO E-7. He is a shellback plus a polar bear as well.:D I have his old cruise books from the 1960's. He worked on aircraft carriers with catapault and arresting gear. He had 21 years in the Navy. He says he was "Old Navy" before the store of the same name.:)
 
While we're on swords, I deeply regret to inform those who haven't heard that Wilkinson Sword no longer makes swords. They quit maybe 5-10 years ago.

I believe that to the last, they kept up standards, using whale oil to quench blades. The blades had to flex a lttle under heavy stress, to avoid breakage in battle. Henry Wilkinson founded the firm whose swords had a fine reputation. When manufacture ended, so did an era. (Envision a sadness face Smilie here.)

At one time, a British officer could buy both sword and revolver at Wilkinson's, and Webley made special guns for them. These were Wikinson-Webleys, and were probably the finest that the firm made. High polish blue jobs, honed actions, etc. Some included a gold initial oval in one grip. Churchill's first revolver was a Wilkinson-Webley, Model of 1892.

I handled several recent Wilkinson swords in a store owned by a friend and was impressed with them.

BTW, the RAF sword more nearly resembles the Royal Navy sword than their Army models. You can find pics on the Net, I imagine.

I was much disappointed that neither young prince wore a sword at the wedding of Prince William and Princess Kate, now also the the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. Other officers present did wear their swords. I like to do swordspotting at such events and at Royal funerals and the Trooping of the Color ceremony. These are probably the best place to see swords today. Few US events seem to feature them.

BTW, toward the end of the 19th Century, British officers on active field service wore leather scabbards, sometimes with a khaki overlay and often had khaki covers for the guards of the swords, to avoid reflections that might make them a target for an Afridi or other Pathan sniper. The nickled scabbards are for ceremonial wear.

The present US Army sword is the Pattern of 1902 For All Officers. The USAF sword is a trivial thing. I'd be almost embarrassed to wear it. If I was President, I'd have it re-designed to a more meaningful, useful item, not a purely ceremonal one, which it admittedly is. The RAF sword is much more impressive! I guess Presidents could influence this: Teddy Roosevelt ordered the original bayonet for the M-1903 Springfield rifle to be re-designed to a much more functional one. Just goes to show that politicians can rarely do useful things...
 
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