Old TexMex
Member
This is confusing. But I think I see what you're saying.
But bear in mind, the most dangerous prison gang in the U.S. doesn't require its members to practice martial art, they study anatomy.
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Do you train for hand-to-hand?
- Thread starter BCDWYO
- Start date
This is confusing. But I think I see what you're saying.
But bear in mind, the most dangerous prison gang in the U.S. doesn't require its members to practice martial art, they study anatomy.
Rastoff
US Veteran
What's confusing about it? I will try to explain or put it in a different way if you can tell me what confused you.
Old TexMex
Member
A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.
Rastoff
US Veteran
OK, I see it now.
Yes, I agree that situational awareness is the way to go. As we've talked about, avoidance is key.
The point I was getting at is that you cannot be aware of everything all the time. Sure, if someone sneaks up behind you and stabs you, no amount of training will help that. But, if someone grabs you, that is something you can defend against.
cjwalker
Member
Jeeze. My dad who spent 22 years on the job, said to me, "Pepper spray, baby, carry it, spray it in that sombitches eyes, kick, claw, punch, do whatever to get away, grab a chair if it's handy and pin that sombitch against the wall and kick him hard.
*sighs* Ain't that hard. A little spray can does wonders.
No, I don't train hand-to-hand. I train "kick, scratch, bite, claw, scream "FIRE FIRE FIRE YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!"
Brings out the spectators.
*sighs* Ain't that hard. A little spray can does wonders.
No, I don't train hand-to-hand. I train "kick, scratch, bite, claw, scream "FIRE FIRE FIRE YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!"
Brings out the spectators.
Protected One
Member
Personally, I think some are placing too much confidence in their ability to see every possible threat because they are so "situationally aware". Even the best are sometimes distracted and find themselves in an undesirable spot.
There is a gentleman in california who owns a company that trains security people (executive protection types - not Walmart Security) & trains martial arts TEACHERS in tactics. Needless to say, he holds black belts in 5 or 6 arts and is a firearms instructor.
One day, while at an ATM, he found himself facing three thugs (one armed with a baton) who wanted to rob him. By the time the police arrived all three were on the deck, writhing in pain with no "visible" injuries. It took the police a few second to realize that HE was the victim.
The point being that if your plan is to use your "situational awareness" to avoid all threats - you need a new plan!
I'm not saying you have to become like my friend, but everyone should know a technique or two for close quarter encounters. You may need it in order to even get to your gun.
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SgtLumpy
Member
Two observations -
- I've seen the aftermath of hundreds of hand to hand encounters. Not one of them was a "Let's trade punches like gentlemen till one of us cries uncle". It's been no holds barred, no rules, kick him in the goodies, claw his eyes out, try and kill him. In some cases the "kill him" part was a success.
- Bad guys train more than any cop, more than any martial arts devotee, more than anybody. AND bad guys are not encumbered by a legal/ethical constraint. They don't have to worry about using excessive force, who initiates what, stand your ground or anything else. They are driven simply by the desire and need to overwhelm, incapacitate and prevail. They don't care how much you're injured or if you survive. It's probably simpler for them if you DON'T survive.
Sgt Lumpy
- I've seen the aftermath of hundreds of hand to hand encounters. Not one of them was a "Let's trade punches like gentlemen till one of us cries uncle". It's been no holds barred, no rules, kick him in the goodies, claw his eyes out, try and kill him. In some cases the "kill him" part was a success.
- Bad guys train more than any cop, more than any martial arts devotee, more than anybody. AND bad guys are not encumbered by a legal/ethical constraint. They don't have to worry about using excessive force, who initiates what, stand your ground or anything else. They are driven simply by the desire and need to overwhelm, incapacitate and prevail. They don't care how much you're injured or if you survive. It's probably simpler for them if you DON'T survive.
Sgt Lumpy
cjwalker
Member
I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?
Regards,
CJ
Regards,
CJ
Old TexMex
Member
Personally, I think some are placing too much confidence in their ability to see every possible threat because they are so "situationally aware". Even the best are sometimes distracted and find themselves in an undesirable spot.
There is a gentleman in california who owns a company that trains security people (executive protection types - not Walmart Security) & trains martial arts TEACHERS in tactics. Needless to say, he holds black belts in 5 or 6 arts and is a firearms instructor.
One day, while at an ATM, he found himself facing three thugs (one armed with a baton) who wanted to rob him. By the time the police arrived all three were on the deck, writhing in pain with no "visible" injuries. It took the police a few second to realize that HE was the victim.
The point being that if your plan is to use your "situational awareness" to avoid all threats - you need a new plan!
I'm not saying you have to become like my friend, but everyone should know a technique or two for close quarter encounters. You may need it in order to even get to your gun.
No doubt. I'm glad I never said that situational awareness alone will keep you safe. I've never met anyone who thought they were, either.
A combination of everything you know and being able to stay teachable (61 and still going to new exercises in defense and executive protection), physical mobility/flexibility
will certainly come with martial art training, yoga-- but since this is a Smith&Wesson forum, a fair percentage of the members are handgunners.
So avoiding having to use it in defense is important. (Situational awareness)Being able to reach it in close quarters is important. (Physical fitness&mobility)
Being able to stop a threat by using it is important.(hitting the target)
Like I said in my first contribution to this thread: "It can't hurt."
But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."
Anyone who attends his classes or exercises directed by him will understand what he means.
I also carry garlic to repel vampires.(down on the border, you can't be too careful, ya know)
Stay safe out there and be lucky.
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Protected One
Member
Old TexMex
Member
Exacto.
I get your point, but doubt that you've never seen two guys fight over whatever and neither intending to kill. Happens in bars and frat party parking lots all the time. Weddings, funerals and bar mitzvahs. Monkey fights, beatdowns by gangs on gang members and drunk tank brawls.
Interesting that a lot of the participants in these things were lightly trained in some dojo, or watched a lot of MMA on TV.
...but I guess that isn't what the OP is asking about.
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Springfeildkid585
Member
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One of those young guys here. I took a multi-disciplinary marshal arts class last summer through a friend who is an instructor in JKD and studies several other martial arts. We showed up wearing our street clothes and conducted everything as we would normally (ie we wore our guns, just unloaded them). We ran multiple scenarios, and it was essentially full go until someone was "dead". I can tell you, I never had time to just step back and draw. I always had to trap atleast one limb before I could get to my side arm and often as not I used a knife instead. I highly recommend hand to hand training for anyone who carries. Always remember the Tuller Drill. If they're inside 21 feet, they can get to you before you can get to your gun.
Even if it was just one????
Yes, even if it was just one. Taking on multiple bad guys only happens in the movies, where they come at you one at a time, and you can re-take the scene till you get it just right. One guy half my age has something all the training in the world won't supply, stamina from fewer birthdays. That, and your comment pre-supposes the younger guy doesn't have any training. Bottom line? If I'm on the spot, I'd better end it in less than 30 seconds. Any longer and I'm outta gas. As the popular saying goes, "I carry because I'm too young to die and too old to take a butt whipping."
Protected One
Member
Agreed! Had I elaborated any more I would have said, against a threat whose ONLY advantage is "youth" - I'll end the fight in seconds. If he is adequatelly trained... that's trouble.
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I think I know what you are driving at but would you care to elaborate?
By definition youth isn't going to be the only advantage, given the OP's intent for this thread he's also going to have surprise on his side and it's likely that he'll have experience going for him as well, I haven't been in a real fight in 20 years and even those fights weren't fights where the other guy was trying to permanently damage me.
You’re also overlooking the fact that the Goblins hunt in packs these days and are usually armed with something they also have a tendency to beat you harder when you go down. A real fight or a real attack if you will isn’t a trifling matter if I was attacked at random I would assume the person intended to kill me and would respond in kind.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:
I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.
The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.
Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
Protected One
Member
You might want to read a little of why he says what he says before you pronounce him as "wrong".
Old TexMex
Member
Sgt. Miller probably doesn't know you either, but I know him.
Maybe you can have a look into what he does.
Perhaps you can set him straight. He's always got time to learn.
For me, I'll stick with my teacher.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Like I said, unless there's something that hasn't been explained, the statement is wrong. I'm not saying he's wrong and I'm sure he is a very good teacher. There's just too much evidence saying that you will do things the way you practice them.
So, if he's saying that no one will use a self defense technique the same way they use it in the studio, then I'd agree with that. However, to say that you won't do what you train/practice would lead me to say, then why train or practice?
So, if he's saying that no one will use a self defense technique the same way they use it in the studio, then I'd agree with that. However, to say that you won't do what you train/practice would lead me to say, then why train or practice?
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