Is a longer barrel better?

[Rastoff]

Thanks gents. Some very good info here. Allow me to add some info that might help narrow things down even more.

This new build, should I actually get it off the ground, will be a .223Rem (or 5.56 NATO, but want to stick with Rem pressures) caliber. The max distance I intend for this will be 500 yards. To go further, I have a .308Win bolt gun. It will be used mostly off a bench or prone. I already have a couple 16" guns and one 20", but none are anything special. So, if I'm going to drop some coin on a barrel, I want to wring out the best I can for my $$.

Since I already have a 16" gun that works fine for less than 200 yards, I thought I'd build a more precision piece. Thus the question about length.

It's the same as shotguns (or handguns). Longer barrel is generally more accurate, all things else being equal.

Well, I'm still learning about rifles, but for shotguns, longer does not deliver more accuracy. You see for the average shot shell, the powder is all burned by the time the ejecta reaches 22"-24" down the barrel. So, more length than that doesn't give you any advantage as far as ballistics are concerned. There are other advantages, but that's not part of this thread.

There is another aspect when it comes to shot shells; powder to ejecta mass ratio. Just because you have a long barrel doesn't mean you'll burn all the powder. The pressure built by the powder ignition and ejecta mass needs to be matched to get a complete burn. If the ejecta mass is too small, not all the powder is burned. If the mass is too large, all the powder is burned, but not effectively used. The goal would be to have the powder charge match the ejecta mass. Shotguns are not precision tools. Therefore, if this ratio is not found, it makes little difference to the performance of the shotgun. So, most shotgun guys don't care about this. However, I expect that it's something a rifle shooter would try very hard to achieve.


So, the question on my mind is, how long does it take to burn all the powder in a .223 shell? How do you find that sweet spot where the powder charge is right for a certain bullet mass?

 

[WR Moore]

I'd suggest you contact one or more of the powder companies about tube length vs powder burn. If you're an NRA member (and you should be), you're entitled to one free technical question per year.

Now then, you can use a rifle length gas system on any tube over 16 inches. I'd suggest possibly 18-20 inches as a barrel length, HBAR or heavier barrel profile. There are full bull barrels available, as well as longer lengths, but you'd need a different gas block made specifically for that barrel. As a side benefit, it might also cut your time at the gym.

500 yards isn't enough to worry about the bullet staying supersonic. I've got a 26" bolt gun and it's roughly 400 fps faster than a 16 inch AR (60 gr bullets), but individual barrels will produce different results. I haven't done a comparison clocking with 75 grain bullets. [THE way to go beyond 300 yards with .223 BTW.] I would go 1-8 or 1-7 twist if you're going short tube. My 26" 1-9 stabilizes the Hornaday 75 gr HPBT (as does my 16 inch 1-9 RR barrel-at least to 150 yards), I suspect any longer bullet won't work.

If weight becomes a problem, a fluted barrel will reduce weight while maintaining superior stiffness to a barrel of the same reduced weight. IIRC, the fluting on the DMR rifle drops a full pound. But: poorly done fluting will screw up vibration patterns.

 

[old&slow]

Last summer I went to a big time benchrest rifle competition with a friend that wanted to check things out. If a longer barrel is more accurate,, then all those folks there were missing the boat.

Short heavy barrels was all I remember seeing. Around the nieghborhood of 20". Don't recall seeing anything in the 26" range.

At the long range 1000 yd matches I see a lot of longer barrels, in the 26" range. I believe because of velocity, need to keep that bullet super sonic all the way out there. The longer barrel and slower burning powder helps with that.

Why do the magnum calibers usually have longer barrels than the standard calibers ? Velocity, need the barrel to burn the powder.

What is the optimum barrel length ? How much barrel do you need to burn all the powder you are using ?

If you are using iron sights the longer barrel / longer sight radius helps the shooter be more accurate,, not necessary the firearm be more accurate.

Why is a snubby less accurate ? Usually the short sight radius and the nut behind the trigger.

 

[rojodiablo]

"Nut behind the trigger......"




MOM; he's teasing me again!!!!

 

[finesse_r]

Typically the shorter barrel will be more accurate, but not by much. There is however a noticeable decrease in muzzle blast and noise with a longer barrel. While the 16" AR is easier to manipulate and maneuver, I like the decrease in noise using an 18 inch barrel. I suppose if you never shoot without ear protection it would not make much difference.

 

[Rastoff]

Oh yeah, this will have a scope. My eyes won't let me use irons much anymore.

Why would anyone shoot without ear protection?

 

[old&slow]

Oh yeah, this will have a scope. My eyes won't let me use irons much anymore.

Why would anyone shoot without ear protection?

I figure with my eyes and iron sights ,, a barrel needs to be about 4 or 5 foot long to be accurate.

Huh ?? what did you say ?? what the heck is 'shoot without air projection' ?

 

[joshk1025]

Oh yeah, this will have a scope. My eyes won't let me use irons much anymore.

Why would anyone shoot without ear protection?

I know some hunters don't bother with hearing protection.

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[cyphertext]

I know some hunters don't bother with hearing protection.

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That is changing... those of us who grew up hunting without ear protection are not passing that bad habit on to our kids. With the new hearing protection that amplifies sound but then cuts out when the sound reaches a certain decibel level, there is no reason to not use hearing protection while hunting.

 

[joshk1025]

That is changing... those of us who grew up hunting without ear protection are not passing that bad habit on to our kids. With the new hearing protection that amplifies sound but then cuts out when the sound reaches a certain decibel level, there is no reason to not use hearing protection while hunting.

Yeah I would never go without hearing protection. I've known guys to forgo all sorts of PPE though.

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[rojodiablo]

I know some hunters don't bother with hearing protection.

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Hunting is far different from bench shooting or plinking.

I'm not investing thousands of dollars in a hunt, hours and days of effort in a stalk, only to blow it because I could not hear a subtle noise from an animal I have been stalking, or something I might spook, causing my quarry to skip town.


And..... the places I hunt have a snake that will sometimes be polite and rattle for you. Not always loud, so it pays to listen.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I'm not a hunter, but "hearing protection" doesn't necessarily interfere with hearing. About half the states allow hunting with a can.

 

[Rastoff]

With the electronic protection available today, it makes no sense to go without hearing protection. Even one shot from a .223Rem or .308Win can cause permanent hearing loss.

This is especially puzzling to me for the guys that spend thousands on a hunting trip. If you're going to spend that much to bag some trophy animal, why not spend a little on hearing protection so you can hear your own story later?

Anyway, this thread is not about hearing protection except to say that is does help cut down on flinching. That in turn will increase accuracy.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The electronic hearing protection I have (cheap Howard Leight) doesn't provide the directional hearing I would think a hunter might require.

 

[Rastoff]

The electronic hearing protection I have (cheap Howard Leight) doesn't provide the directional hearing I would think a hunter might require.

Right, but he said...

I'm not investing thousands of dollars in a hunt,...

Howard Leight hearing protection is on par with a $30 red dot; better than nothing, but not really worth having for serious use.

If you're going to spend THOUSANDS on a hunt, I would think that a few hundred for good hearing protection would be worth it, don't you?

I'm not a hunter either, but my hearing is worth more to me than any gun or hunt. As an instructor I need to be able to hear what students are doing. So, I invested in a set of SportEar electronic hearing protectors. They can actually amplify the sounds so I can hear better with them on than not. They cut off when a shot is taken. Truly remarkable product, but not cheap.

In 1920 I would understand not wearing hearing protection. With today's technology, I don't understand not wearing it at all.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Right, but he said...

Howard Leight hearing protection is on par with a $30 red dot; better than nothing, but not really worth having for serious use.

If you're going to spend THOUSANDS on a hunt, I would think that a few hundred for good hearing protection would be worth it, don't you?

I'm not a hunter either, but my hearing is worth more to me than any gun or hunt. As an instructor I need to be able to hear what students are doing. So, I invested in a set of SportEar electronic hearing protectors. They can actually amplify the sounds so I can hear better with them on than not. They cut off when a shot is taken. Truly remarkable product, but not cheap.

In 1920 I would understand not wearing hearing protection. With today's technology, I don't understand not wearing it at all.

What has that got to do with directional hearing? Can you tell where sound is coming from with Sporty protector?

HL amplify sound just fine (in tandem with ear plugs) for conversation or anything else, but directional hearing is impaired.

 

[Rastoff]

What has that got to do with directional hearing? Can you tell where sound is coming from with Sporty protector?

Um, yes, of course. One device goes in each ear thus, stereo sound is maintained. Here is a pic of mine:

The only reason you'd lose directionality is if the electronic device has monaural processing. For that they would have to be linked and have only one microphone.

Actually, you should be able to tell direction even with the Howard Leight protectors. The problem with them is that they have directional microphones. So, the sounds tend to seem like they are coming from in front or behind depending on how you have them mounted on your head.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Stereo is one thing, but being able to make a distinction where the sound is coming from up/down or 2 o'clock / 4 o'clock is quite another. If those you have there can do that that's impressive. Might consider getting them.

 

[rojodiablo]

Um, yes, of course. One device goes in each ear thus, stereo sound is maintained. Here is a pic of mine:

The only reason you'd lose directionality is if the electronic device has monaural processing. For that they would have to be linked and have only one microphone.

Actually, you should be able to tell direction even with the Howard Leight protectors. The problem with them is that they have directional microphones. So, the sounds tend to seem like they are coming from in front or behind depending on how you have them mounted on your head.

3am. Heavy brush up high, tunnels below. Hogs move thru almost silently. If you are getting close, they quit that grunting and all that other stuff. They go silent, and move very light on their feet. You won't hear much of anything, and when you do...... you need to often now look behind you to see their rump as they slink off.

And then there is deer hunting, and they are TWICE as silent.
I have tried some hearing protectors. They offer 5-10db reductions on idle. The deer you are looking for are only making about 1/2db of noise, so you barely even hear leaves rustle.
I have been next to artillery going off, and even with the very best of protection...... the first thing we would jokingly say is "Wanna answer that. It's still ringing...!"

Between various guns, Iron Maiden and AC/DC........ It's a miracle I can hear at all.

So long as you are not ripping rounds off all day, unprotected..... your ears will be fine for the most part. Lots of city noises emanate the frequencies which will attribute to tone deafness, which is the same kind of hearing loss associated with gunfire. You can hear one thing, but not another. If your wife speaks in the same tone as the rifle, or as a jackhammer pinging off concrete???? Is hearing loss REALLY such a loss?????

 

[Rastoff]

Stereo is one thing, but being able to make a distinction where the sound is coming from up/down or 2 o'clock / 4 o'clock is quite another. If those you have there can do that that's impressive. Might consider getting them.

Well, I'm not an audiologist. I always thought that we can tell the direction of sound through the time different between when a sound reaches each ear. Isn't that stereophonic hearing? Maybe binaural is the right term?

Regardless of the terminology or science, with those ear plugs I can hear just like I'm not wearing anything. My own voice sounds different, but everyone else sounds normal. In fact, I hear other sounds much better if I turn them up a little. rojodiablo, all those sounds you mention would be easier to hear with these.

Every time I use them I'm amazed at how well they work. You would think that some of the noise would sneak through, but it doesn't. I can have a perfectly normal conversation and then take a shot and the shot is completely muffled. When shooting Trap, I can hear the click of the firing pin on a shotgun two stations away. I'm able to discern if they have their safety on or if it's a misfire through the sound the trigger makes depending on the malfunction.

These are custom fit so, I can't loan them to anyone. I wish I could because until you try them, you have no idea how amazing they are. The only drawback is the battery life isn't great. Think EOTech vs Aimpoint and these are EOTechs. Fortunately the batteries are inexpensive. Also, mine are much larger than they usually make them. I have difficult ear canals so, they made them fill my ear cavity to help them stay in better. Normally these are so small they aren't able to be seen unless you know what you're looking for.

Don't take my word for it, check them out for yourself: http://sportear.com/