Need iron sight help.

[KeithR]

I'm sorry if I missed it when reading these posts, but I don't recall any post that asked the OP if he zeroed his sights after first puting it to a mechanical zero as a starting point then zeroing in at the 25yrd distance. There are a lot of you tube videos on how to do this very simple procedure. That is basic AR-15 101!

 

[shawn mccarver]

These rules apply to any firearm.

Some get bent out of shape when I list these rules. So, remember what you paid for them.

We've all heard the phrase, "More people are shot by unloaded guns..." Even though that is physically impossible, most of us understand the meaning. Well, it's real. This short list will help keep you and your family safe while practicing without ammo at home.

• Unload your gun. This may sound obvious, but if it were, there would never be a negligent discharge (ND) at home.
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• Designate a dry practice area. If possible, pick a place that has a back stop with some ability to stop a bullet. A brick or cinder block wall is good or a wall facing a dirt hill is good too. It doesn't matter where this area is, but NEVER take ammo into this area. ALWAYS unload the gun and magazines before entering this area. Treat this area as sacred. If you have your carry gun strapped to you, don't go in this area.
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• Put up a target. It doesn't matter what it is, just be sure to put it up. A 3" sticky note works great. DO NOT use a permanent fixture. I can't emphasize this enough. I actually have a friend who was practicing his trigger control by pointing at guys on the TV. Yep, you guessed it, he got a brand new plasma TV, just a little sooner than he wanted. More on this later.
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• Say out loud, "I'm starting dry practice." Sound dumb? It's not. This alerts anyone that might hear you to what you're doing. It is also a stronger clue to yourself of what you're doing. It helps trigger that inner sense of heightened safety. Do a chamber check and magazine check at the beginning. (If you don't know what that is, just ask. I'll be more than happy to explain it further.)
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• Set a time limit. The average attention span to achieve quality learning is about 20 minutes. You can practice for hours if you like, just break it up into sessions not longer than 20 minutes.
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• Do your practice. Trigger control, follow through, malfunction drills, whatever you feel like doing. Earlier in the thread I talked about a "wall drill". This is a good time to do that. You have your temporary target up and can use it because you're in your designated area where you're sure there's no ammo, right?
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• When you're done with your practice session, say out loud, "I'm done with dry practice", take down your target and leave the dry practice area. Again, this emphasizes the actions you're taking and ingrains a better level of safety. Taking the target down reduces the chances you'll say, "Just one more time" when you have a loaded gun.

Under no circumstances say, "One more time." This will eventually lead to disaster. I know of one fellow who was doing dry practice and using a picture on his wall for a target (here's another reason that's bad). He finished and loaded up his carry gun to head off to work. As he was headed out the door, he saw that picture and thought, "Just one more time." This time he had a loaded gun and put a hole in the picture and the wall. Thankfully he had a solid wall behind it and the round didn't continue to his neighbor's house.



I've had a lot of guys get upset when I mention these simple rules. Most of the rules should seem so obvious that it leaves you wondering why I would say them at all. Still, some think I'm questioning their manhood or something because I suggest not using the TV for a target. If you want to use your TV, fine. Just don't come crying here when you have to buy another.

Complacency is the biggest cause of NDs in the gun world. By following these rules the chance of a ND is lowered a great deal.

I have broken many of these rules myself. Fortunately, I haven't had a ND. Alas, I'm human and as such, fallible. By following these rules, it makes us all safer.

Just to hammer safety home:

1. Always handle every gun as though it were loaded.
2. Always be aware of your muzzle and only point it at something you're willing to destroy.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointed at your intended target.
4. Always know your target and what is in line with it. It's not enough to know the target and what's beyond. You have to be sure no one can walk in between you and the target.

All of the above is excellent advice.

I will add one point in addition to the part about putting up a target. Gunsite, and perhaps other shooting schools, sell a "dry fire" kit that consists of a target of steel plate designed to stop a bullet should you have a negligent discharge. Why? Because it has happened to far too many experienced shooters (many will not admit it). I have heard of mirrors being shattered when the shooter was using his own silhouette for dry practice, and televisions have gone south (no big loss here), and outdoor items, such as the dials on the utility meter, etc. have all been lost to "safe" dry practice.

Follow Rastoff's advice to the letter and if you are lucky, you will not ever harm anyone even if you do have a negligent discharge. Oh, I forgot to mention, no disturbances such as distracting telephone calls, etc. And, when you are finished, leave the area AND THE FIREARM behind. Many problems have happened after dry practice was finished, the weapon reloaded, a distraction such as a call or a discussion, then back to practice for that one last perfect dry shot - and BANG. If you are lucky, all that happens is the mirror, TV or some other replaceable item is destroyed.

Rastoff is not over stating the case in the least.

 

[Tactical-ar]

At 25 yards, load up on cheap, steel cased ammo and plink away at first. At that distance, no need to burn through anything approaching $.50/round. With the Magpul BUIS system on my 15T at 50 yards I had to "unlearn" what my mind was telling me a sight picture should look like, just put the "pumpkin on the post" and point 'n shoot (like a red dot). They're not NM sights so I had to dial down my accuracy expectations a bit, remembering the whole point of being "backup sights" is they're there if your optic fails. After a 10 round mag getting my windage squared away, it took another 10 to figure out the elevation. After that I was putting everything in the black and managed a few X Rings. You'll get it! I'm glad I took the time to figure it out even if 99% of my shooting will be with a scope or reflex optic.

I have do respectfully disagree, if iron sights are zeroed to military standards 300 meters is easy to the practiced individuals
The army basic training manual is a good place to start, but I always tuaght and still teach profeceintcy with irons first unt one is competent with placing quick accurate follow up shots. This pays dividends once you move up to optics. But irons can be very accurate if you take the time to learn them properly. I always recommend using 45 irons in tandem with optics so you can still practice your irons with out taking your optic off and if your optic fails you don't have to remove it right away if your in the field. And there good for closer engagements if your using a scope.

 

[rjbFL]

rastoff thanks

ahawn mccarver thanks

 

[johnfjr]

Thanks for the great info, but im confused on one note, use larger opening for closer targets? I thought the larger opening on the rear sight was for dust to night shooting? I've been using the small opening always. Please confirm I should be using the larger opening for up to 100 yards? Thanks

 

[Rastoff]

The large opening is for low light and quick acquisition and less than 300 yards. The small opening is for 300 yards or more. I can only state that this is true for sights that are patterned after the standard rear sights found on the A2 handle that look similar to this one:

 

[WR Moore]

The peep sight is very simple. You need to get your eye very close to the sight. To get close enough and insure the same cheek weld, your nose should almost be touching the charging handle.

I've been to a lot of instructional courses and I've NEVER seen this as part of the course. It has the potential for severe injury and is fundamentally unsound.

There was a later suggestion to use the small aperature. This is also an error in general. Don't build bad habits. The center of a circle is the center of a circle regardless of size. Using the small aperature at close range simply makes it impossible to figure out exactly where on the target your sight is aligned. If you look closely at the base of the large rear aperature, it's labeled 0-200 (meters is assumed).

The small aperature is used for 300-600/800 meters depending upon how your sight is marked. Most of us aren't going to be shooting irons at 300 meters, much less 600. Or at least it is on most sights. There are some, as Rastoff notes, where the small and large aperatures are on the same plane. This simply allows you a choice of aperature size rather than a change in point of impact.

If the small aperature makes your front sight sharper, this is natures way of letting you know you need to see the eye doctor.

 

[rojodiablo]

Not necessarily...its manufacturer dependent. I called Magpul today about this speific question and was told that on their MBUS (that comes with the Sport) the centers of both circles are on the same plane.

The centers of the peep holes are centered on ALL the AR iron sights.

This system is designed, for the .mil....... to give the basic rifleman an almost instant change between relatively close quarters shooting window to an extended window. You are taught how much of the target to cover at increased yardages- on the fly as it were. You are not shooting for MOA, but rather MOB. And they hold that well enough. (Minute Of Bad guy.)

There is no change of sighting methodology, no adjusting anything. It's a pretty simple system, and almost idiot-proof.


So much weird stuff in this thread. The smaller peep sight is most certainly NOT designed for distances specifically over 300 yards. The effective sight window at about 150yds is the basic limit of the larger peep. Sure, you can sling lead further with some decent results, but that's the practical limit. And again, we are talking torso sized targets, not pie plates. The zero to zero between the sights runs as has been mentioned, 25 and 150 ish, 50 and 200. There is a direct correlation in drop with these distances which becomes much more pronounced beyond 300 yards, which is why 25/150 works, 50/200 works..... but 50/300, 100/300 does not work nearly as well.

The peep sights which are designed to reach to 600yds are more dedicated to that task, and are different, with rear elevation adjustment as well as windage, rarely have a dual aperture, and the peep is smaller than the small peep sight on the AR style sights. Not to mention, the front sight switches to a pin rather than a platform style.

And when shooting for marksman, yes you are crowding the optic pretty closely. You are looking to squeeze the sight picture, and dial down to smaller target circles. You are not shooting the same manner as say shooting offhand and looking to get solid center mass hits on a torso target at 100yds.

It's an AR......it's certainly not going to beat you up shooting it.

 

[gunny4053]

I've been to a lot of instructional courses and I've NEVER seen this as part of the course. It has the potential for severe injury and is fundamentally unsound.

Then you nor your instructors have ever been in the military. That is precisely the method used, it does not cause injury, and as it is designed, provides the same cheek to stock weld and positions the eye directly behind and in line with the rear sight. This was the method used when I went through training, it was the method used when I went through the Drill Sgt. academy, it was the method we used when I was an instructor, and we had no injuries, and amazingly my students managed to hit targets out to 300 meters as the course was set up.

If you want to do it right, zero at 25 meters, not yards. This will put you dead on at 250 meters, with only minor vertical adjustments required to hit center of mass at any point between 25 and 300 meters, all without having to move anything on your sights.

 

[bhayles]

I've been to a lot of instructional courses and I've NEVER seen this as part of the course. It has the potential for severe injury and is fundamentally unsound.

Military instructional video. Pertinant information begins at 4:45:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc4ufirxmc

 

[cyphertext]

I've been to a lot of instructional courses and I've NEVER seen this as part of the course. It has the potential for severe injury and is fundamentally unsound.

Ever served in the US military? Nose to charging handle is taught there to insure that you are consistent in your mount. How does it have potential for sever injury? The charging handle does not move when the rife is fired.

There was a later suggestion to use the small aperature. This is also an error in general. Don't build bad habits. The center of a circle is the center of a circle regardless of size. Using the small aperature at close range simply makes it impossible to figure out exactly where on the target your sight is aligned. If you look closely at the base of the large rear aperature, it's labeled 0-200 (meters is assumed).

The small aperature is used for 300-600/800 meters depending upon how your sight is marked. Most of us aren't going to be shooting irons at 300 meters, much less 600. Or at least it is on most sights. There are some, as Rastoff notes, where the small and large aperatures are on the same plane. This simply allows you a choice of aperature size rather than a change in point of impact.

If the small aperature makes your front sight sharper, this is natures way of letting you know you need to see the eye doctor.

As for your second point, technically you are correct. To use the sight correctly, you would use the large aperture for 0-200 meters. This is if you are using the rifle as an infantry weapon and you are going to engage human size targets at known distances from across the room to 600 meters.

However, like you said, most of us are not using the firearm in that manner. We are trying to shoot tight groups at 100 to 200 yards. For this, the small aperture works well. Many competitive shooters use a thinner front sight post with an even smaller aperture rear sight. The smaller aperture does not make it impossible to figure out where you are aligned on the target... it actually makes it easier, as it helps with depth of field (at least for me). The target is still blurry, as it should be, but it is not as blurry as it is with the larger aperture. Just like a camera lens, the bigger the aperture, the more blurry and blown out the background is. Smaller aperture allows the subject (front sight post) to be sharply focused and the background (target) to be softly focused. The disadvantage with the smaller aperture is less light coming in to your eye. Works great on bright, sunny days, but on overcast days, you may not see as much contrast between the sight post and target.

 

[WR Moore]

Gentlemen: the video-made 30 odd years after my introduction to the AR system-specifies and illustrates eye relief up to 6 inches and shows a variety of acceptable head positions/cheek welds. They stress maintaining the same eye relief (although that may vary somewhat depending upon position) and a solid cheek weld as key to success. Just like they did in 1969. Nose to charging handle MAY be a speedy reference that MAY help some who struggle with the concept of achieving a consistant cheek weld. Still doesn't make it a good technique. We used to refer to that as stock crawling.

I'll also note that the former Marine firearms instructors [with much, much more recent experience] on shift happen to agree with me. Not every weapon one fires is going to be a 5.56mm-even in the military. Just because it happens to work for you, doesn't necessarily make it a fundamentally good technique.

 

[cyphertext]

Gentlemen: the video-made 30 odd years after my introduction to the AR system-specifies and illustrates eye relief up to 6 inches and shows a variety of acceptable head positions/cheek welds. They stress maintaining the same eye relief (although that may vary somewhat depending upon position) and a solid cheek weld as key to success. Just like they did in 1969. Nose to charging handle MAY be a speedy reference that MAY help some who struggle with the concept of achieving a consistant cheek weld. Still doesn't make it a good technique. We used to refer to that as stock crawling.

So I guess the Army Marksmanship Unit is doing it wrong? Would you like to address it with them WR Moore? Let them know that their technique is no good and not fundamentally sound?

I'll also note that the former Marine firearms instructors [with much, much more recent experience] on shift happen to agree with me. Not every weapon one fires is going to be a 5.56mm-even in the military. Just because it happens to work for you, doesn't necessarily make it a fundamentally good technique.

You are correct, every weapon you fire may not be an AR-15. My cheek placement is different with my scoped .30-06 than it is with my open sight AR-15. If I scope my AR, my cheek weld may even be different due to eye relief. Be that as it may, we are discussing open sights on the AR-15, so that doesn't apply.

 

[gunny4053]

Just because it happens to work for you, doesn't necessarily make it a fundamentally good technique.

It doesn't JUST work for me, it is a fundamentally good technique that has been used with rather outstanding results for over 50 years by millions of our military, your Marine instructor as well I would guess. Granted methods change and improve, but there is nothing wrong this one. It works, is not unsafe, and to get a new AR shooter on target is a proven technique. This is like the 1911, they don't stick around this long unless they're proven to work.

Shoot however you like, using whatever method you like, and others, I'm sure, will do the same.

I don't normally engage in peein contest and I've diverted this thread enough, for that I apologize, so, I'm out of this one.

Good Luck and good shooting.

 

[bhayles]

Be that as it may, we are discussing open sights on the AR-15, so that doesn't apply.

Beat me to it.

Frankly, as a newbie to AR's but not to guns, if I have to choose which advice to follow, I'll take a Marine training video, used to train tens of thousands of Marines, the best fighting force on the planet, over "well I think, and my buddy an ex-instructor says..." any day of the week.

1. Its an AR, basically, with few changes, what Marines use.

2. There is a video used to train Marines on how to use irons on an AR platform.

That's all I need. I'll follow the video.

 

[cyphertext]

It doesn't JUST work for me, it is a fundamentally good technique that has been used with rather outstanding results for over 50 years by millions of our military, your Marine instructor as well I would guess. Granted methods change and improve, but there is nothing wrong this one. It works, is not unsafe, and to get a new AR shooter on target is a proven technique.

Methods do change and improve... maybe there is a new way, but when they were trying to move recruits through and get them to be able to hit in the black consistently, nose to charging handle was the way to do it.

Speaking of change, I have heard that troops are not being taught to shoot iron sights in basic anymore. We have shifted to red dot sights. Every Marine's rifle has an Aimpoint now, from what I am hearing. Not sure if true, but possible.

 

[JaPes]

Speaking of change, I have heard that troops are not being taught to shoot iron sights in basic anymore. We have shifted to red dot sights. Every Marine's rifle has an ACOG now, from what I am hearing. Not sure if true, but possible.

Say it ain't so.

IMO not learning to shoot iron sights on a rifle is like not learning to drive a manual transmission.

 

[Rastoff]

Speaking of change, I have heard that troops are not being taught to shoot iron sights in basic anymore. We have shifted to red dot sights. Every Marine's rifle has an ACOG now, from what I am hearing. Not sure if true, but possible.

I would be very surprised if every gun had an ACOG on it. It would be more likely to see the Aimpoint Comp M3/4 on them. Even so, this isn't true everywhere yet. The Air Force is still using M-16s for general use. All the Security Forces guys seem to be carrying the M-4 with the Aimpoint Comp M3 on them.

I'm not sure switching to a magnified scope for general infantry work is the right answer either.

 

[cyphertext]

I would be very surprised if every gun had an ACOG on it. It would be more likely to see the Aimpoint Comp M3/4 on them. Even so, this isn't true everywhere yet. The Air Force is still using M-16s for general use. All the Security Forces guys seem to be carrying the M-4 with the Aimpoint Comp M3 on them.

I'm not sure switching to a magnified scope for general infantry work is the right answer either.

Oops, I mispoke... was thinking Aimpoint and typed ACOG...

Red dot sight... that is what I heard.

 

[Rastoff]

Oops, I mispoke...

Welcome to my world.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go to the Comp M3/4. I've used one a few times and really like it. They are virtually indestructible and will continue to work even if the glass is shattered. Considering the sheer numbers they'd be ordering, I'll bet the military can get them for $500 per unit. After the initial order, Aimpoint would continue to supply them at full retail. Very lucrative for Aimpoint and very good for our troops.

People can say what they want about iron sights and tradition. The red dot is a better solution for our military. It's much easier to train and use. And, if you've never tried to fire a rifle with a flak vest and a gas mask on, you have no idea how hard it is to use iron sights under those conditions. A red dot makes it almost as easy as shooting without all that stuff on.