Pretty much what I thought. Others are overthinking this . . .
Probably Would Have Been Better off Keeping My Mouth Shut
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
Pretty much what I thought. Others are overthinking this . . .
That's a shame. One of the things I have noticed, being a Christian, is that many Christians walk with their nose up in the air. The scriptures don't preach that at all and IMHO a prominent speaker should understand this. I will put it out there: I am terrible at receiving criticism but I do my best to contemplate it. I hope she is doing the same, your advice is good advice. I know here in VA, what she did could have been considered brandishing. Secondly, a concealed weapon permit isn't supposed to be bragged about, that is the point, otherwise it is just a weapon permit. Hopefully she thinks about what you said, it was good advice.
gwpercle
Member
I have learned to never give advice unless it is asked for. Otherwise it is definitely not wanted.
Nine times out of ten , even when requested, the advice is not taken. Sometimes when people refuse to take our ( asked for) advice on something , I look at my business partner and say we haven't been doing this for 40 years and not learned how things work , It's like they know more than we do but have never done it before in their life ! You can't beat the stupid ones at their know it all game, so don't even try.
Gary
Nine times out of ten , even when requested, the advice is not taken. Sometimes when people refuse to take our ( asked for) advice on something , I look at my business partner and say we haven't been doing this for 40 years and not learned how things work , It's like they know more than we do but have never done it before in their life ! You can't beat the stupid ones at their know it all game, so don't even try.
Gary
On The Legality of Church Security Teams
The funny thing about this thread is that it's kinda giving me a taste of what this woman must have felt like when I started dipping my fingers in her Kool Aid.
I am by no means an expert on church security but there are a couple of things that I know just from common sense.
This is the 21st century and like it or not any church of any size has legal representation and (if they have any brains at all) they probably don't change the brand of toilet paper in the bathroom without running it by the legal team.
When our church decided to institute a security team the first thing they did was put a reputable, retired police officer in charge of it. We also have quite a few police officers both in attendance at the church and on the security team so we have a built in working relationship with the CSPD.
Now if something ever does happen instead of having Joe Unknown meet the responding officers at the door they have Sergeant So and So of their very own PD (who they probably know since CSPD ain't that big) meeting them.
Next they sat down with the insurance company and found out exactly what the requirements for the insurance rider were. Church security is a business these days and there are insurance companies that specialize in writing policies just for that particular risk. I've even mentioned in other threads that the church pays to have the security team receive professional, NRA certified training every other month or so and (because of our good relations with CSPD) we occasionally receive training from the cops.
Then they got the legal team to look into the exact limit of our authority as private security guards and they make damn sure that we are well trained on what we can and (more importantly) can not do. Any team member that stepped over the line would be acting outside the scope of his duties and would be liable for his actions.
Bottom line this isn't a bunch of Goobers with guns walking around the church
The funny thing about this thread is that it's kinda giving me a taste of what this woman must have felt like when I started dipping my fingers in her Kool Aid.
I am by no means an expert on church security but there are a couple of things that I know just from common sense.
This is the 21st century and like it or not any church of any size has legal representation and (if they have any brains at all) they probably don't change the brand of toilet paper in the bathroom without running it by the legal team.
When our church decided to institute a security team the first thing they did was put a reputable, retired police officer in charge of it. We also have quite a few police officers both in attendance at the church and on the security team so we have a built in working relationship with the CSPD.
Now if something ever does happen instead of having Joe Unknown meet the responding officers at the door they have Sergeant So and So of their very own PD (who they probably know since CSPD ain't that big) meeting them.
Next they sat down with the insurance company and found out exactly what the requirements for the insurance rider were. Church security is a business these days and there are insurance companies that specialize in writing policies just for that particular risk. I've even mentioned in other threads that the church pays to have the security team receive professional, NRA certified training every other month or so and (because of our good relations with CSPD) we occasionally receive training from the cops.
Then they got the legal team to look into the exact limit of our authority as private security guards and they make damn sure that we are well trained on what we can and (more importantly) can not do. Any team member that stepped over the line would be acting outside the scope of his duties and would be liable for his actions.
Bottom line this isn't a bunch of Goobers with guns walking around the church
Last edited:
C'mon Smoke. Elephant in the corner. None of the comments about the "legality" of the security have concerned themselves with anything other than "Is your security team officially armed or is everyone just carrying concealed within their rights as a CCW permit holder in the state?"
I don't care one way or the other, but you've taken a lot of heat for this from armchair lawyers.
Last edited:
People asked I gave a response
Not my fight, but non-responsive. No more questions.
Grayfox
US Veteran
Once again I refer to the best advice my Daddy ever gave me.
Never pass up a good opportunity to shut up.
Never pass up a good opportunity to shut up.
He answered. The "legality" of it is clear under Colorado law. They are permitted to perform their duties in plainclothes and with weapons concealed anywhere on the church's property. They are trained and insured, and the law is on their side. IMHO, as a 30+ year LEO with several years in an assignment where we regularly support VIP escorts, I don't see any problem here other than my "criticism" in my previous post. Really, guys, no matter how these things are handled where you live, this is how it's done here. And Smoke's church is by no means unique.
It's the scourge of the times that a house of worship has to be secured by armed men. We've had several violent incidents in churches here in Colorado in recent years, and I for one am glad that congregations have chosen to actively protect themselves. I don't know Smoke personally, but I do have friends in similar positions up here around Denver, and they do a professional job with no problems.
It's the scourge of the times that a house of worship has to be secured by armed men. We've had several violent incidents in churches here in Colorado in recent years, and I for one am glad that congregations have chosen to actively protect themselves. I don't know Smoke personally, but I do have friends in similar positions up here around Denver, and they do a professional job with no problems.
I feel like my opinion on matters related to me are just as important
as the next persons. And probably more so than most of the so-called
"celebrities" opinions on certain matters.
If they don't want to hear it they can ignore it or walk away.
Matters not to me. I'll not be "Hog Tied" in any way, shape or form
regarding my voice.
I try and keep a low profile and don't butt into others business
and this has served me well thru the years.
However, if i have a "dog in the fight", i'll speak my mind.
Chuck
as the next persons. And probably more so than most of the so-called
"celebrities" opinions on certain matters.
If they don't want to hear it they can ignore it or walk away.
Matters not to me. I'll not be "Hog Tied" in any way, shape or form
regarding my voice.
I try and keep a low profile and don't butt into others business
and this has served me well thru the years.
However, if i have a "dog in the fight", i'll speak my mind.
Chuck
Read every post again. There's no mention of armed or unarmed. I don't care one way or the other, but it is those assumptions which lead to unwarranted arguments. If I am wrong, please quote the sentence which discusses whether or not they are armed, and I will profusely apologize for being unable to read.
I'd say opening my mouth at all was an ego thing. If I'm disappointed at anything it would be that I still (apparently) haven't learned that 99.99999999% of the time I'm better off keeping my big mouth shut
PastureOfMuppets
Member
Unsolicited advise is criticism, however... she will remember it.
Now wether she takes it into consideration is another matter.
If she does, you may possibly have saved her life.
If she doesn't, well, at least you tried...
Now wether she takes it into consideration is another matter.
If she does, you may possibly have saved her life.
If she doesn't, well, at least you tried...
If you think you can keep someone (or multiple people) safe or shine light on a subject never be afraid to speak up.
Alrighty then.
I've offered advise a couple of times, but always ask first. Once I helped a newbie pick a gun at a gun show and once I helped a lady at the range who was having trouble controlling recoil (gun was flying all over the place). In both instances the people were appreciative but maybe I was just lucky.
I saw the reference to being armed, so I must've seen it after that was added.
Again, thinking the woman should be grateful, or at least receptive, of advice is off the mark. Don't mean to keep hammering the point (sorry Smoke!) but in a "bodyguard" scenario, security's job is to protect the package, not tell them anything other than what's necessary. For example, do you think a Secret Service agent tells his protectee what the best item is on the menu? No, they stick to what they're there for - protection. Unfortunately, the folks that briefed Smoke's team left all that out.
Again, thinking the woman should be grateful, or at least receptive, of advice is off the mark. Don't mean to keep hammering the point (sorry Smoke!) but in a "bodyguard" scenario, security's job is to protect the package, not tell them anything other than what's necessary. For example, do you think a Secret Service agent tells his protectee what the best item is on the menu? No, they stick to what they're there for - protection. Unfortunately, the folks that briefed Smoke's team left all that out.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
I have a liberal step daughter. I pushed nothing on her whatsoever about guns. This woman has a real head on her shoulders, is a very successful high paid executive of a large company and a jet setter. Yesterday she called me, said they are coming to visit next month and want me to take them all (her, her liberal husband and 13 year old son) out shooting! I better come through. She is a blond but not dumb and is 6ft 3"or 4"s! The last visit she wanted me to show my grandson some guns. I think he liked a nickle colt scout I have so I told him it was his when he got older with his moms permission. My grandson is suppose to be 6 ft 7 or 8"s when he grows up. He`s huge already.
This is the colt I am going to start him out with and give him in a few years.
This is the colt I am going to start him out with and give him in a few years.
Last edited:
It never occured to me to want her to be "grateful" I was just hopping she'd think about it next time she opened her mouth to tell the world she has a permit.
Which leads me right back into my opening statement. Learning to keep my mouth shut has ben hardest lesson in my life.
