Is there something in the water in Texas?....

[hatt]

"Extremists" are the people who get things done. They pave the way and then everyone else tags along. I wouldn't be surprised if the people pushing concealed carry a couple of decades ago were considered extremist by the current CC supporters. Probably all the same things said. "Making good gun owners look bad, etc." I certainly remember all the pro gun anti "assault weapon" people back in the 90s that helped get the AWB passed.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

I wonder how King George III described our founding fathers, y'know, insisting on their rights and all.

 

[hatt]

I wonder how King George III described our founding fathers, y'know, insisting on their rights and all.

Independence is being shoved down everyone's throats by the radical, "look at me," minority crowd.

That's what you would have heard if they would have had the internets back then.

 

[cyphertext]

Because far too many gun owners are a bunch of cowards. A few hundred people can get mega corps to change policies but millions of gun owners are too scared to take any sort of stand against a company. If 1/2 of gun owners had any sort of backbone announcements like this would cause stock prices to knock a hole in the floor.

I wouldn't be surprised if you guys were happy when Target/whoever else came out with these announcement. Your hatred of the open carry guys surpasses your support of the 2nd.

No, I am not happy when they make these announcements, as the business owners intentions are no guns, not just open carry guns. Will they take the legal steps required to keep my CC out of there? Probably not, but that does not change the wishes of the owners of the business.

As far as my "hatred" of the OC guys. I don't hate them, I just wish that they would ALL quit carrying into private businesses... Open Carry Texas is trying to get their members to stop that practice, as they now understand it is hurting the cause. I support the OC rallies, march at the capitol, etc., just keep it on public property where it is a 1A right, not a battle against private property rights. Leave the camo and tactical vests at home too... no need to look like a right wing militant.

And you are sadly mistaken if you think that there are more gun owners than there are general population. You have extremists on both ends, with most neutral in the middle. However the extremists on the OC side here have turned many of the neutral against them.

Here you talk about gun owners affecting stock, but badmouth the NRA... your biggest voice in Congress, yet you badmouth and are not a member. Out of all the gun owners in America, only 5 Million members. If only half the gun owners would join the NRA, I doubt you would see too many gun bills even come to the floor. They may not be perfect, but they are your voice.

 

[cyphertext]

I wonder how King George III described our founding fathers, y'know, insisting on their rights and all.

You know how he described them... rebels, maybe even terrorists...

But what does that have to do with openly carrying a firearm in a private business?

If Target's policy is now truly no guns allowed, even where legal, I would suspect that they will ask you to leave if you are openly carrying your firearm... you can thank the OC guys who keep carrying into private businesses for making Target and others take a stand against something that was previously allowed.

 

[cyphertext]

"Extremists" are the people who get things done. They pave the way and then everyone else tags along. I wouldn't be surprised if the people pushing concealed carry a couple of decades ago were considered extremist by the current CC supporters. Probably all the same things said. "Making good gun owners look bad, etc." I certainly remember all the pro gun anti "assault weapon" people back in the 90s that helped get the AWB passed.

Nope, fully supported CC here... even worked petition drives. Didn't carry a gun, never was asked to leave a restaurant, never had the police called on me...

 

[hatt]

Here you talk about gun owners affecting stock, but badmouth the NRA... your biggest voice in Congress, yet you badmouth and are not a member. Out of all the gun owners in America, only 5 Million members. If only half the gun owners would join the NRA, I doubt you would see too many gun bills even come to the floor. They may not be perfect, but they are your voice.

They aren't my voice. Far from it. I've seen them work here in FL where they blamed the OC "bloggers." Now they blame the OC "carriers." Clearly the only acceptable thing to them is to play on people's fears so they send them money. After they killed OC in FL a few years ago they went right back into "we need OC in FL send us money" the next year. If half the gun owners joined the NRA the NRA would simply have a nicer HQ, more lavish parties, and private jumbo jets. If I want to be a member of a gun control org I'll join the Brady Campaign or the VPC.

 

[cyphertext]

They aren't my voice. Far from it. I've seen them work here in FL where they blamed the OC "bloggers." Now they blame the OC "carriers." Clearly the only acceptable thing to them is to play on people's fears and send them money. If half the gun owners joined the NRA the NRA would simply have a nicer HQ, more lavish parties, and private jumbo jets. If I want to be a member of a gun control org I'll join the Brady Campaign or the VPC.

Obvious that you know nothing about the NRA... And when a business comes creates a new policy of "no guns allowed" because a bunch of folks were carrying rifles across their chests... well, who the hell is at fault if it isn't the OC people?

I am a certified instructor, and work with both Boy Scouts and JROTC shooting programs. These programs get youth involved in the shooting sports, keeping our rights alive for future generations. Where did I get my certs to work with the these groups? The NRA. What are you doing to get future generations involved in the shooting sports?

I handed out pamphlets, attended rallies, and worked petition drives to get CC passed here in Texas... The NRA and the TSRA backed those efforts. What have you done to get pro-gun bills passed in your legislation?

 

[hatt]

I'm personally speaking out against the anti-gunners, raising awareness. Wherever they are and whatever they hide behind. Figured that was better than sending a special interest group $15.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

And when a business comes creates a new policy of "no guns allowed" because a bunch of folks were carrying rifles across their chests... well, who the hell is at fault if it isn't the OC people?

You, and those who criticize others fighting for their 2A rights.

A or B? Did you need a C option?

 

[ladder13]

I support the 2nd, I really do.

 

[cyphertext]

You, and those who criticize others fighting for their 2A rights.

A or B? Did you need a C option?

Ya, that must be it... I'm to blame because private companies are creating policies to keep firearms off their property, although I have never openly carried on their property, nor have I petitioned them for such policy.

Why is it so hard to understand that your right to carry stops at their property line? At that point it is permission.

 

[Hansli]

It is 2014 and 82% of the state population lives in urban areas. Open carry is brandishing in a city. Concealed carry is the discrete way to celebrate your 2A without upsetting others who don't want to see your gun. On your ranch, fine, there are snakes and coyotes. The prevailing attitude in this country has developed into a my way or the highway philosophy with no desire to live in any way other than how the individual sees fit. If you live in a city, you have to share it with others just like the road. Rules are there to keep the peace, like it or not. You virulent gun guys ruin the fun for everyone else. Texas is a great state, but it's not just yours to do as you please. Get you a piece of land if you want to play gunslinger.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Why is it so hard to understand that your right to carry stops at their property line? At that point it is permission.

Huh? Show me where I said anything about Target (or anyone else) not having the right to allow or not allow guns or anything else on their property, Elmer.

 

[TexasArmed]

Ya, that must be it... I'm to blame because private companies are creating policies to keep firearms off their property, although I have never openly carried on their property, nor have I petitioned them for such policy.

Why is it so hard to understand that your right to carry stops at their property line? At that point it is permission.

Businesses have a legal sign in Texas, two of them 30.06 and 51% sign, nothing less works unless they individually ask someone to leave. I won't enter the open carry debate. I
believe in the 2nd amendment but I won't fight with Texas Law.

My right to carry ends where there is a legal 30.06 sign posted
in Texas, and then I won't go there. Target has legal counsel.
If they intend to stop CHL holders from carrying on their property they know which sign is required.

I follow the speed limit signs which are white in color and enforceable, not the yellow colored ones that are just suggested.

 

[cyphertext]

Huh? Show me where I said anything about Target (or anyone else) not having the right to allow or not allow guns or anything else on their property, Elmer.

Did you not say it is my fault that private businesses are instituting no gun policies above? Me and others who are critical of those fighting for their rights?

 

[ladder13]

I support the 2nd, I really do.

That was a joke.....................sort of.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
You know what? I want to be wrong.
***GRJ***

Well, that's okay, because you are wrong. You give common people's powers of observation too much credit and their rationality too little. Our local big city newspaper that railed against open carry conceded on the editorial page that open carry was no big deal. Of course, this is Oklahoma where the anti-gun nuts' "magical thinking" holds little sway.

I wish I was wrong......

But I won't go over the whole concept again. Since the moderators allow this debate in the concealed carry forum let's discuss the law.

The Second Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Well regulated means disciplined, maybe organized, definitely trained, and in the context of the 19th Century it meant all able bodied men/citizens who were expected to be ready to fight if called upon. The citizens were the militia. So no argument about the Army or the National Guard works against the concept that the militia is US, you and me. Currently, however, that part of the Second Amendment is not under too much scrutiny, not that I am aware of, anyway.

"Being necessary to the security of a free State" - well, how do you keep your country free? Defend it. Who does that? The people. We might pay people to do it, e.g., uniform armed forces, but it's still the people. And "people" for Con Law definitions is US, you and me, so the 2nd Am applies to US!

So, we, the people, have the "right to keep and bear arms", a right that "shall not be infringed".

Seriously? Do you really believe it is an unfettered right to carry a firearm anywhere, anytime, whenever you wish?

IT MOST ASSUREDLY IS NOT.

If you look at the law in America and the rights guaranteed to the people you can routinely find where the so-called, Gd-give, guaranteed rights have limitations. Speech? You cannot say anything at anytime anywhere. The classic example is yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater when there is no fire. Get yourself arrested. Okay, you don't like that one? Go ahead and tell everyone that some person you know is a bank robber. Oops. He really isn't? LAWSUIT! You lose. So, now, how much of your speech is FREE?

Those are simple examples. There are plenty more. You and ten friends gather in the Wal-Mart parking lot, rifles on your shoulders, to protest Wal-Mart's policy against guns. Wal-Mart security comes out and asks you to leave because (a) Wal-Mart doesn't allow firearms on its premises and (b) you don't have permission to be there. Your reply? First Amendment right to assemble peacefully and you're behaving and Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Oops. Wrong. It's their property, you are now a criminal trespasser and you're under arrest. No right to assemble on Wal-Mart's property exists and they get to decide who does or does not carry a gun on their premises. Wow! Two guaranteed rights and you're in the calaboose anyway?

So there you have it. None of the rights are unfettered and each can be infringed under the right circumstances. We won't even go into the concept that the FEDERAL Second Amendment was only just recently applied to the States (McDonald case) so for 2 centuries the States were able to infringe the right to keep and bear arms to their heart's content. Do you think that the Supreme Court applied the Second Amendment to the States and that application dramatically erased all States' gun control laws? It did not. The Court allowed "reasonable restrictions". WHOA BUDDY!!!! Isn't that infringement? Arguably, yes it is. Arguably, it's LEGAL infringement.

So let's a get a grip here on what we can and cannot do when it comes to flaunting our firearms in public.

***GRJ***

 

[cyphertext]

Businesses have a legal sign in Texas, two of them 30.06 and 51% sign, nothing less works unless they individually ask someone to leave. I won't enter the open carry debate. I
believe in the 2nd amendment but I won't fight with Texas Law.

My right to carry ends where there is a legal 30.06 sign posted
in Texas, and then I won't go there. Target has legal counsel.
If they intend to stop CHL holders from carrying on their property they know which sign is required.

I follow the speed limit signs which are white in color and enforceable, not the yellow colored ones that are just suggested.

You are correct that there is a legal way to post against CC, but that doesn't change the fact that the business owner has said to keep your guns out of his store, legal or otherwise.

But there is no question that the policy was put in place to address OC.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I forgot to conclude that the fact that the anti-gun nuts don't hold magical sway in Oklahoma is not the point. In Texas they don't hold sway, either, but that still doesn't mean that carrying a gun openly in either place isn't going to disturb certain people. Sure, the local fuzz isn't going to come running if open carry is permitted when they're told that a gun was seen in a holster - but that doesn't mean they'll cease getting such phone calls from a host of concerned citizens in beautiful downtown Tulsa. And I bet they will!

***GRJ***