4506-1

[Brandon0413]

I was just looking at the ejector, trying to figure out exactly how it works. Does it just come up and the spent casing hits it, forcing it out?

The very end of the ejector is not chipped. It is, however, chipped a little on the side opposite the ejection port on the little dome shaped part and there are a couple of areas worn through the finish, elsewhere.

The ammo I was using was the cheapest 45 ammo I've seen, yet. It was tulammo steel cased. I went through a box and a half or so of winchester brass cased before that and didn't notice any erratic ejecting. But, I wasn't really paying attention until one hit me on the head. I'll shoot some different ammo, work on my grip and try to pay attention better next time.

The head of the guide rod does spin quite freely compared to my 3953 and there seems to be a small gap between the head and the guide rod like it is starting to separate. I can move it back and forth. I just can't turn the head of it with one finger. I think I read earlier today that it needs replaced if you can turn it with one finger. If I grab it with 2 fingers it spins easily without any resistance. But if I do that with the 3953 guide rod I get some resistance. Sounds like I played with it too much, but, I also noticed that on the 3953 guide rod that the button (not sure that's the correct term, but it sounds good to me) that the slide stop hits gets resistance or feels like it's hitting something when trying to press it. If I spin the guide rod head a bit, it frees it up and you can press that button easier, without so much resistance. Sounds like I should try to get a new guide rod for this one. I don't see any in stock anywhere, though.

 

[Fastbolt]

I was just looking at the ejector, trying to figure out exactly how it works. Does it just come up and the spent casing hits it, forcing it out?

The very end of the ejector is not chipped. It is, however, chipped a little on the side opposite the ejection port on the little dome shaped part and there are a couple of areas worn through the finish, elsewhere.

The ejector is lifted up by the magazine when inserted in the gun, and the empty cases impact against it. The older ones were shorter and had a sharp corner cut underneath the rear of the tip (bottom ejector in attached pic). The revised ejectors (top one in pic) had longer tips, for faster ejection (especially with hotter loads), and the sharp corner on the bottom of the tip was replaced with a curve (to reduce stress riser potential & breakage).

There were some other little changes here & there over the years (longer .40 ejectors, black & plain finish, etc).

The ammo I was using was the cheapest 45 ammo I've seen, yet. It was tulammo steel cased. ... I'll shoot some different ammo, work on my grip and try to pay attention better next time.

I'd try it again with any ammo made by one of the major American ammo makers, myself.

The head of the guide rod does spin quite freely compared to my 3953 and there seems to be a small gap between the head and the guide rod like it is starting to separate. I can move it back and forth. ... If I grab it with 2 fingers it spins easily without any resistance. But if I do that with the 3953 guide rod I get some resistance. Sounds like I played with it too much, but, I also noticed that on the 3953 guide rod that the button (not sure that's the correct term, but it sounds good to me) that the slide stop hits gets resistance or feels like it's hitting something when trying to press it. If I spin the guide rod head a bit, it frees it up and you can press that button easier, without so much resistance. Sounds like I should try to get a new guide rod for this one. I don't see any in stock anywhere, though.

I'd replace both rod assemblies, if they were my guns, or duty weapons. Yes, they can periodically be hard to find. They're may not all be perfect, either. Notice the overlapped staking on the one rod in this bunch? (The one on the left is a newer 1-piece unit, with removeable plunger & spring.)

 

[vigil617]

Fastbolt, since we're talking about extractors here, what's the purpose of the "dome" on the tip of the extractor? Does it just act as an additional stiffener (the way cross breaks in sheet metal will stiffen a piece) for the tip prior to heat treatment, or does it catch on any part of the empty cartridge during ejection?

 

[Fastbolt]

Fastbolt, since we're talking about extractors here, what's the purpose of the "dome" on the tip of the extractor? Does it just act as an additional stiffener (the way cross breaks in sheet metal will stiffen a piece) for the tip prior to heat treatment, or does it catch on any part of the empty cartridge during ejection?

Helps "widen" the bottom edge profile of the ejector so it catches the top of the mag (left lip).

 

[Brandon0413]

Well, I put in the new recoil spring and magazine spring and the feeding issues have disappeared.

I asked a friend to watch while I was shooting to see if my empty casings were ejecting properly and he said about half of them look good and the other half fly straight back over my head. Is this an issue or can it cause issues? I was shooting some winchester ammo.

The very first time I shot this gun it was like a lazer. Every bullet went right where I was aiming. I haven't been able to do this since. It seems to be all over the place, now. I'm leaning towards it being me since I'm pretty new to target shooting and proper grip etc. I've tried focusing on my grip like I was when I first shot this gun but haven't been able to do as good with it since. I was thinking about sending it in to S&W or one of their warranty sites but not sure exactly how to go about it. This gun also needs a new guide rod as it is starting to come apart. What do you guys think?

 

[Navy74]

It's you. And yes, the new springs were a good idea as these guns are usually 20 years old. Or older. I have trouble accuracy wise with my 4506, yet my 4566 with the shorter barrel, I am dead on. Go figure. To me the 4566 has perfect balance. The 4506, while really "awesome" looking, seems like a hunk of metal with Novocain injections. No feel.

 

[photocosmo]

I'd certainly be concerned if that guide rod is "coming apart" and if you can order one from S&W... get TWO - 'cuz why not? Otherwise I'd zero out your sights and try using a bench rest or something because once you are convinced that the pistol is reliably accurate (which I consistently find true of MY 4506-no dash) you'll immediately become more relaxed and (consequently) a better shooter of it.
Generally speaking these are very effective and forgiving "working" guns meant to deliver the goods time and time again. There's not a lot to go wrong here. And what better excuse could one have for shooting it a whole bunch anyway?

 

[Fastbolt]

This gun also needs a new guide rod as it is starting to come apart.

If the staked head/collar of the guide rod is loose (can be turned by fingers gently twisting it, while holding the rod body in the other hand), it's time to order a replacement rod assembly.

There are two types you'll probably find. The older style has the head/collar staked onto the body (6 staking dimples on the body, just below the collar). The newer type is a 1-piece rod body, and the plunger (and its spring) are pressed into the head of the body (and are removable/replaceable, unlike with the older style unit). These are a mix of units from different caliber 3rd gen's, just to show the difference in how they've been produced.



For a while I was receiving both styles when I ordered replacement rod assemblies for the larger .45's, so either type may be available depending where/when you order.

 

[Brandon0413]

I ended up sending this 4506-1 to S&W and they replaced the guide rod with an old style one that's in good shape. They also replaced the extractor spring. I've yet to take it to the range to see if it makes any difference, but I can tell they fired a round or two through it at least.

I also ordered a guide rod for my 3953 and they sent me an incomplete guide rod twice without the plunger or the spring for the plunger. Then, they sent me an old style one in good shape.

If anyone needs a guide rod for a 3913/3953 I have two without the plunger or spring for the plunger. I'm not sure where to find the plunger or spring.

Do you want these, fastbolt?

 

[Fastbolt]

I ended up sending this 4506-1 to S&W and they replaced the guide rod with an old style one that's in good shape. They also replaced the extractor spring. I've yet to take it to the range to see if it makes any difference, but I can tell they fired a round or two through it at least.

I also ordered a guide rod for my 3953 and they sent me an incomplete guide rod twice without the plunger or the spring for the plunger. Then, they sent me an old style one in good shape.

If anyone needs a guide rod for a 3913/3953 I have two without the plunger or spring for the plunger. I'm not sure where to find the plunger or spring.

Do you want these, fastbolt?

Appreciate the offer, but I have at least a couple of the older style. Why not save them for someone who might really need them some time? Someone often asks for such things on the forum every now and again.

I'd like to say it's unusual to end up getting the newer style rod assemblies sent out without the plungers & springs installed in them ... but I've had that happen to me, as well.

It seems to be easier to return the incomplete rod 'assemblies' to have the plungers & springs installed -(or just have someone in Parts grab another complete rod assembly to ship in replacement, tossing the plain 'incomplete' rods back into some small bin with others) - than to have the plungers & springs shipped out as separate parts. At this time, at least. Dunno why.

I haven't heard of the newer style steel plungers and springs wearing out, so it's probably not like they're keeping an over-abundance of them put away as repair parts.

Rods can become damaged, though, so I can see keeping some of them on hand as separate parts.

I've also heard of an isolated agency who may have received some of the older rod units that developed some mushroomed peening on the front end (which reportedly eventually interfered with the end of the rod moving within the slide's spring box hole during functioning). Best guess I heard was a possible problem with heat treating in that small number of units.

The plastic plungers can get frayed and chewed up (from a lot of field stripping), but seem to keep providing for normal functioning even after starting to look frazzled. I've kept one in one of my CS guns (forget which at the moment) just to see how long it'll keep working well after the head's tip started taking on the appearance of a dog's chew toy. I finally lost interest waiting for it to cause a problem.

Then again, I once got shipped one of the separate steel plungers (in a 'replenishment' parts order of odds & ends) which apparently hadn't received all the necessary machining. The top of the plunger looked sort of like an arrowhead, or a sharply cut mushroom. I tossed it in my "oddities" drawer and didn't even try it in a gun.

BTW, not surprised they replaced the extractor spring. Probably gauged the extractor for fit and the spring for tension as part of a quick inspection (since they've got the tools at the bench), and saw your spring was outside (below) the recommended spec range. Easy thing to check and do, and it can really help an older gun continue to provide good service.

I'd not worry about machining marks, as the older guns certainly came with a range of such marks. Newer production methods have "cleaned up" such things, but they can still happen.

Ditto with burrs. Some burrs I leave alone ('cosmetic', but hidden from view in assembled gun), and some I clean up (if they might cause an actual problem). The trick is to learn the difference ... and learn how to dress burrs so the "fix" doesn't create an unintended problem of its own, where none actually existed beforehand (other than cosmetic).

 

[Brandon0413]

I'd like to say it's unusual to end up getting the newer style rod assemblies sent out without the plungers & springs installed in them ... but I've had that happen to me, as well.

It seems to be easier to return the incomplete rod 'assemblies' to have the plungers & springs installed -(or just have someone in Parts grab another complete rod assembly to ship in replacement, tossing the plain 'incomplete' rods back into some small bin with others) - than to have the plungers & springs shipped out as separate parts. At this time, at least. Dunno why.

Thank you for your very informative post, as always.

Do you happen to have part numbers for the plunger and spring I need for these 2 3913/3953 guide rods?

Both customer service reps I talked to seemed to be confused as to why the plunger and spring were missing from the guide rod and they couldn't find part numbers for them.

 

[rcp1936]

Bought one in 94
Had it Magnaported and sent it to S&W for a conversion to DAO
Great shooting gun
Sold it 4 years ago less than 400 rds through it
Missed for a while but bought a SR1911 to satisfy my 45 yearnings

 

[Fastbolt]

Thank you for your very informative post, as always.

Do you happen to have part numbers for the plunger and spring I need for these 2 3913/3953 guide rods?

Both customer service reps I talked to seemed to be confused as to why the plunger and spring were missing from the guide rod and they couldn't find part numbers for them.

Not at hand. Sorry. Probably buried in some parts invoice or another stored in my bench desk or one of the plastic bins I use for misc papers, manuals & such.

Even though I have fairly current copies of the commercial parts lists ('13), I usually call and ask to confirm the parts numbers with the LE contact working CS, anyway, and even he often has to look deeper into their in-house parts files, or make a call to somewhere else, to find the current number for some parts (since they sometimes get revised for one reason or another). I can tell it sometimes annoys him, too.

It doesn't have to make sense. After all, why do they list the slide stop lever assembly parts, meaning the plunger & spring (which they don't even teach armorers to replace separately nowadays) ... and yet they don't list the recoil spring assembly parts???

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Ejector length

The ejector... The older ones were shorter and had a sharp corner cut underneath the rear of the tip (bottom ejector in attached pic). The revised ejectors (top one in pic) had longer tips, for faster ejection especially with hotter loads), and the sharp corner on the bottom of the tip was replaced with a curve (to reduce stress riser potential & breakage).

Your explanation reminded of something a read in the an article (S&W 1006 Torture Test 10,000 rounds - AH 1991). One of the failures they had was the ejector tip broken off at 9000 rounds. That didn't stop the test as the gun still functioned. In fact, they said that with the broken ejector the spent cases ended up just 2-3' away rather than the normal 6-8'.

This seemed odd to me at first but in thinking about it I reasoned that the slide speed was slightly higher at the point where the case hit the normal/undamaged ejector verses the slower speed when the case hit the ejector with the (completely) broken off tip. Does this sound right?
.

 

[Fastbolt]

Not having access to the high speed imaging S&W engineers often use for such things, I could only make SWAG's about it.

The generously sized ejection port of the 3rd gen guns probably has something to do with it, though. (Meaning not having excessive ejection problems even with a broken ejector and the long 10mm cases.)

I wouldn't be surprised if the longer 10mm ejected cases might not have had some dented or crushed case mouths now and again, though. Remember, the later revision of the ejectors incorporated a longer ejector tip, and one of the benefits observed was that the longer tip started kicking the empties out faster/sooner, and this was especially thought helpful when faster slide velocities were caused by some of the hotter 9mm loads seeing duty use (like the 115gr +P & 115gr +P+).

Someone brought a 4516-2 to the range one time, telling me it was for sale for $200 if I was interested. It belonged to another cop, and the guy who'd brought it was considering buying it. When it came time for me to try it, during the first 50+ rounds I noticed a couple of the empties ejected a bit weirdly for a S&W, and I gave the gun a closer inspection. The ejector tip was broken off. Looked like it had been that way for a long time.

Some further questioning of the guy who'd brought the gun revealed the owner hadn't carried it as an off-duty weapon for some years, and seemingly because every once in a while it wouldn't eject an empty case, and he'd simply put it away instead of having it examined for a problem.

I took the gun inside to the bench and replaced the ejector, as well as giving the gun a quick once-over & detailed cleaning while it was broken down. Another trip down range revealed the ejection pattern was once again normal and brisk, and I told the guy who'd brought it to the range to inform the owner of the repair. I also told him I'd feel bad about taking advantage of the owner being unaware the gun had simply needed a new part, but if the owner still wanted to sell it, let me know. Last I heard, that 4516-2 wasn't for sale.

 

[djh1765]

None of the issues you show are issues to me. My 4506-1 was manufactured in Dec. of 1995 and pretty much show the same as yours.

No telling how many 1000's of rounds I have put through mine without one issue. It will shoot any 45ACP cartridges you want to feed it.

Love this pistol.

As far as your jams. On a 4506-1 when putting in a fresh magazine. Put it in hard and bump it on the end with the heal of your hand. That will seat the magazine properly..

djh