Liberty Ammunition

[walkin' trails]

There were some concerns about this ammo being capable of penetrating ballistic vests being floated around a year or so ago. Never did see anything to substantiate the fear, though. They reminded me of an article I read back in the 80s about some zinc 9mm German WWII surplus ammo that showed up in Europe and played hell with backdrops at shooting range. Seems the German army had developed the round for the MP smgs to penetrate the skin of US vehicles up to M3 half-tracks.

 

[kemper]

That was not my experience

My guess is their claims will "fragment along the way". If nothing else it seems it would stress the hell out of the average 9mm handgun and kick like a stud zebra, but heaven knows I'm no expert.

I tested out ten rounds each of 9mm and 380 yesterday out of a Glock 19 and Ruger LCP and found the opposite to be true as far as recoil. The recoil was noticeably lighter in both calibers as was the weight of the magazine. It should be noted that the 9mm shot to point of aim at 15 yards and the 380 shot about 2 inches low at 15 yards.

I'm curious, why do you think that it would "stress the hell" out of an average 9mm handgun ?

 

[kemper]

Shot some yesterday

Three words: No *******' way.

Unless it's about a 60-grain projectile, in which case 450 foot-pounds is laughable.

I'm going to have to see some objective data. Preferably from a private citizen who has shot a good deal of the stuff.

It is a 50 grain projectile and it is "screaming fast" coming out of my Glock 19 barrel. As I said in my earlier post ten rounds shot to point of aim out of my Glock 19, but the 380 rounds shot about 2 inches low at 15 yards out of my Ruger LCP.

15 yards is more probably than not about as far as one would ever use the Ruger LCP and for that matter the Glock too in a self defense situtation

 

[kemper]

WOW !

Friends don't let friend believe everything they see on boobtube.

Have you ever shot or used any of it ?
Why do you automatically dismiss it as BS when you have no idea or actual experience with this ammo ?

 

[Protected One]

I went shooting at a local range with a friend last week. He is a county sheriff and he swears by the stuff. He says the recoil is almost nothing.

After our session we stopped at the counter and he asked the guy to show me a box in 40cal (which is what he carries). I read the box...60gr., all copper round. Muzzle velocity:2000 fps

The guy said that ALL the store employees carry that round!

I looked at a couple of videos, and both supported the muzzle velocity and energy, but...the penetration was only 8 1/2", with fragments going in all directions within 3" after impact. My friend and the LGS employees place more importance on the impact energy and internal damage by fragmentation, than on reaching 12" or more of penetration.

For now at least, I will stick with my Hornady Critical duty.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Have you ever shot or used any of it ?
Why do you automatically dismiss it as BS when you have no idea or actual experience with this ammo ?

Read post #18.

Everyone wants to believe that magic bullets exist. They don't.

This ammo is just another example that will fail too.

 

[Lycan]

I went shooting at a local range with a friend last week. He is a county sheriff and he swears by the stuff. He says the recoil is almost nothing.

After our session we stopped at the counter and he asked the guy to show me a box in 40cal (which is what he carries). I read the box...60gr., all copper round. Muzzle velocity:2000 fps

The guy said that ALL the store employees carry that round!

I looked at a couple of videos, and both supported the muzzle velocity and energy, but...the penetration was only 8 1/2", with fragments going in all directions within 3" after impact. My friend and the LGS employees place more importance on the impact energy and internal damage by fragmentation, than on reaching 12" or more of penetration.

For now at least, I will stick with my Hornady Critical duty.

Your decision is supported by a lot of testing and field studies that show the depth of penetration along with the wound cavity are what effects assailants the quickest in self defense situations.

Surface wounds like those created with the Liberty or G2 rounds have a psychological effect (a lot of blood) but do little to do physical damage to the organs and deep tissue (which is needed to completely stop someone).

It's a subject that has been debated and discussed for ever and at the end of the day, it all goes boom (hopefully) when you pull the trigger. So I guess it just comes down to personal preference. But, like you, I would rather depend on "proven" more than "perceived" when it comes down to self defense ammo.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

I went shooting at a local range with a friend last week. He is a county sheriff and he swears by the stuff. He says the recoil is almost nothing.

After our session we stopped at the counter and he asked the guy to show me a box in 40cal (which is what he carries). I read the box...60gr., all copper round. Muzzle velocity:2000 fps

The guy said that ALL the store employees carry that round!

I looked at a couple of videos, and both supported the muzzle velocity and energy, but...the penetration was only 8 1/2", with fragments going in all directions within 3" after impact. My friend and the LGS employees place more importance on the impact energy and internal damage by fragmentation, than on reaching 12" or more of penetration.

For now at least, I will stick with my Hornady Critical duty.

You're in the same boat as anyone else who may be using the Liberty 50gr HP; Critical Defense/Critical Duty is completely unproven on the streets. Something that I certainly wouldn't trust my life to without seeing actual shooting results. I don't place my trust in ammo shot solely into blocks of ballistic gel

 

[Lycan]

[/b]

You're in the same boat as anyone else who may be using the Liberty 50gr HP; Critical Defense/Critical Duty is completely unproven on the streets. Something that I certainly wouldn't trust my life to without seeing actual shooting results. I don't place my trust in ammo shot solely into blocks of ballistic gel

Ballistic gel is only a measuring tool for how a round reacts in certain conditions. Clearly, it does not 100% reliably represent how it works with people. However, regardless of how much real data is available about a round, the fact is that each shot can act in an erratic and unpredictable manner. The round can follow bone, it can over penetrate, it can be deflected, etc. Every shot can be different. So the best we can hope for is a general representation of how a certain round will react in a controlled circumstance. That is what the ballistic gel test does. It gives a common point from which testing can be performed, with the outcomes considered either acceptable or not acceptable by FBI standards. The standards are set by drawing parallels between how the bullet reacts in the gel compared to how that performance can best be translated to human performance and effectiveness.

In other words, it equalizes the testing standard for ammo performance.

In this respect, most "similar ammo" tests provide similar results. Equal grains, loads, calibers, and designs (hp -vs- fmj for example) regardless of brand or hype, generally all give similar results (within a small margin).

It has been shown time after time...test after test, that bullets with deeper penetration and cavity wounds provide more effective "stopping" power than the less penetrating and damaging rounds. Most of which, have some level of fragmentation and higher velocity, which results in less lead (or brass) going deep enough to do deep flesh or organ damage.

The choice really does come down to each person as to what they want to use, but saying a deeper penetrating and damaging bullet isn't proven to be a better SD round than a lesser penetrating lesser damaging bullet just isn't accurate.

Like I said, the best, most proven round can do some strange things when it hits a person, so I would rather rely on a round that has a better chance of performing the way it needs to, when it needs to...as it is shown to, with repeated testing.

 

[kemper]

Ballistic gel is only a measuring tool for how a round reacts in certain conditions. Clearly, it does not 100% reliably represent how it works with people. However, regardless of how much real data is available about a round, the fact is that each shot can act in an erratic and unpredictable manner. The round can follow bone, it can over penetrate, it can be deflected, etc. Every shot can be different. So the best we can hope for is a general representation of how a certain round will react in a controlled circumstance. That is what the ballistic gel test does. It gives a common point from which testing can be performed, with the outcomes considered either acceptable or not acceptable by FBI standards. The standards are set by drawing parallels between how the bullet reacts in the gel compared to how that performance can best be translated to human performance and effectiveness.

In other words, it equalizes the testing standard for ammo performance.

In this respect, most "similar ammo" tests provide similar results. Equal grains, loads, calibers, and designs (hp -vs- fmj for example) regardless of brand or hype, generally all give similar results (within a small margin).

It has been shown time after time...test after test, that bullets with deeper penetration and cavity wounds provide more effective "stopping" power than the less penetrating and damaging rounds. Most of which, have some level of fragmentation and higher velocity, which results in less lead (or brass) going deep enough to do deep flesh or organ damage.
The choice really does come down to each person as to what they want to use, but saying a deeper penetrating and damaging bullet isn't proven to be a better SD round than a lesser penetrating lesser damaging bullet just isn't accurate.

You make some really good points that are certainly true, but
did you mis-type the text in bold ? It would seem that it is either one or the other. The super fast fragmenting rounds like Liberty Civil Defense provide large cavity wounds once they enter soft tissue and spread fragments of copper in multiple directions which is what creates the large cavity, but their energy quickly dissipates thereby reducing the depth of penetration, correct ?

The deeper penetrating rounds stay together longer which produces less wound cavity once it enters soft tissue, but the mass/weight of the projectile aids in deeper penetration. It can't be both ways and if deep penetration is the primary goal then why doesn't everyone just shoot and use FMJ ammo ?

 

[kemper]

Yes, I read post 18

Read post #18.

Everyone wants to believe that magic bullets exist. They don't.

This ammo is just another example that will fail too.

Yes, I did read post # 18, but again I will ask the question again. Have YOU EVER shot or used this round buddy ?

Most folks that actually get out and shoot their weapons with different types of ammunition know magic bullets do not exist, but it would seem logical that one would have to actually load, shoot and evaluate the ammo in "their" weapon before they start dismissing it out of hand.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Yes, I did read post # 18, but again I will ask the question again. Have YOU EVER shot or used this round buddy ?

Most folks that actually get out and shoot their weapons with different types of ammunition know magic bullets do not exist, but it would seem logical that one would have to actually load, shoot and evaluate the ammo in "their" weapon before they start dismissing it out of hand.

I don't know what your issue is but I'm sure you'll get over it someday.

Yes, I have shot it. Last weekend as a matter of fact. It functioned fine.

But if you think that proves anything, you're wrong.

There are and have been countless brands of ammo which claimed to be the absolute best ever. They didn't last long.

Don't get caught up in the game.

 

[Lycan]

You make some really good points that are certainly true, but
did you mis-type the text in bold ? It would seem that it is either one or the other. The super fast fragmenting rounds like Liberty Civil Defense provide large cavity wounds once they enter soft tissue and spread fragments of copper in multiple directions which is what creates the large cavity, but their energy quickly dissipates thereby reducing the depth of penetration, correct ?

The deeper penetrating rounds stay together longer which produces less wound cavity once it enters soft tissue, but the mass/weight of the projectile aids in deeper penetration. It can't be both ways and if deep penetration is the primary goal then why doesn't everyone just shoot and use FMJ ammo ?

No mistype. The damage I am talking about is deeper. And the fragmented rounds generally do not go deeper. A shallow wound cavity can be bigger (due to fragmentation) than a deeper wound cavity and have much less of a stopping effect because the wound cavity didn't run deep enough to do deep flesh or organ damage. That is why the shallower, yet slightly larger wound cavity usually looks worse (shallow flesh damage) than the deeper wound, yet has a much diminished "physical stopping" effect. Organ and deep flesh damage is what "stops" assailants most of the time, not flesh wounds. Like I said, there are always wild cards. A shallow bullet can hit a main artery or soft tissue (allowing easier organ access) and still do some real damage, just as a deeper penetrating bullet can follow bone or exit without massive damage.

The point is (as I mentioned), I would rather rely on a bullet that will probably do what it needs to most of the time instead of on one that might be effective some of the time.

Also, FMJ ammo has a higher chance of over penetration. There is a sweet zone that is strived for (usually between 12 and 18 inches by FBI standards...I think). It comes down to the right mixture of enough penetration (without over penetration) and good expansion (obtained best with HPs and the like). Other factors like feed rliability, recoil, etc...can also be important to an individual shooter. Effective SD ammo does no good if it isn't reliable and easily handled by the shooter.

Early, shallow, expansion, no expansion, or over / under penetration can all make a round less effective for what it needs to do.

 

[rwsmith]

Looks like.....

Looks like a great varmint round. Anything bigger..I dunno.

 

[rwsmith]

Looks like.....

Looks like a great varmint round. Anything bigger..I dunno. The impressive numbers go to show what can be done on paper.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Maybe understanding penetration and fragmentation will help.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[viking jeff]

In 45 and 9mm recoil is very mild. I have shot watermelon. I'm sold on the stuff. Its in my bedside Glock 30. I am sold. try it!

 

[falconman515]

Any updates .... Cause all I've read so far is nonsense from guys who just don't care to even shoot it and dismiss absolutely anything new.

I myself bought a couple boxes and the weight is great and I will be shooting it all through my carry pistol (Shield 9) to see how well it shoots, how accurate it is and above all reliability.

Just curious if there any new real world actual users that can reply (and not guys who have never shot it and just want to reply with "no way I'll ever shoot it" kinda replies!

Thanks and looking forward to reading some actual constructive thoughts from people who have "actually" uses this ammo

 

[Pete1971]

I put up a post on this Saturday, ran some thru my 40c, yes NO RECOIL (hardly) this stuff is amazing, and weigh's nothing compared to regular stuff, makes my gun feel empty, I love it

 

[tectrry]

This is what I carry in each of my pistols (9mm, .40 & .45). I love it. Check out YouTube for many ballistic gel tests and reviews (or this website as well). I ran into a sale at Dicks last week $12/ box and stocked up. I think SGAmmo had a good price on it recently as well.