Before it indeed does come to the point of using a weapon in self defense and you do indeed take a life, please consider another perspective & ask: what will the effect be on the family of the person whose life is taken; what effect will this have on my family's life; what happens when you are sued - and you will get sued; how will I cope with guilt every day that I will carry to the grave?
New to concealed carry...
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@2K7...
Indeed, proficiency and mental preparedness is essential. I've been shooting handguns since I was 8. I'm a very solid shooter in times of calm at the range. As for mental preparedness goes, I don't know if any of us will ever be mentally prepared to do what may have to be done when your adrenaline is pumping through your veins in a time of crisis. "Buck fever" is tough enough, and those deer aren't even threatening my life.
As for insurance goes... I've been weighing some options. What do you suggest?
@Derosa...
"Before it indeed does come to the point of using a weapon in self defense and you do indeed take a life, please consider another perspective & ask: what will the effect be on the family of the person whose life is taken; what effect will this have on my family's life; what happens when you are sued - and you will get sued; how will I cope with guilt every day that I will carry to the grave?"
With all due respect, If I'm in a life-or-death situation. The effect on the criminal's family ranks pretty low on my priority list, as I'm sure the effect of the criminal's actions on my family is also low on their priority list.
As for guilt... It will probably be something you have to live with. The irony of it would be the fact that you would actually get to live with it. But, I will also say this... I felt guilt when I shot my first deer, and that guilt eventually went away....and I like deer a lot more than I like people that are trying to harm me or my family.
If I ever have to pull my weapon and use it, it will not be because I provoked the situation. My intentions are to never have to use my handguns for any other reason than target practice, but should the life-or-death need ever arise, I will not hesitate to use the force necessary to stop the threat. I'm not aiming to wound, I'm not aiming to kill...I'm aiming to stop the imminent threat.
Indeed, proficiency and mental preparedness is essential. I've been shooting handguns since I was 8. I'm a very solid shooter in times of calm at the range. As for mental preparedness goes, I don't know if any of us will ever be mentally prepared to do what may have to be done when your adrenaline is pumping through your veins in a time of crisis. "Buck fever" is tough enough, and those deer aren't even threatening my life.
As for insurance goes... I've been weighing some options. What do you suggest?
@Derosa...
"Before it indeed does come to the point of using a weapon in self defense and you do indeed take a life, please consider another perspective & ask: what will the effect be on the family of the person whose life is taken; what effect will this have on my family's life; what happens when you are sued - and you will get sued; how will I cope with guilt every day that I will carry to the grave?"
With all due respect, If I'm in a life-or-death situation. The effect on the criminal's family ranks pretty low on my priority list, as I'm sure the effect of the criminal's actions on my family is also low on their priority list.
As for guilt... It will probably be something you have to live with. The irony of it would be the fact that you would actually get to live with it. But, I will also say this... I felt guilt when I shot my first deer, and that guilt eventually went away....and I like deer a lot more than I like people that are trying to harm me or my family.
If I ever have to pull my weapon and use it, it will not be because I provoked the situation. My intentions are to never have to use my handguns for any other reason than target practice, but should the life-or-death need ever arise, I will not hesitate to use the force necessary to stop the threat. I'm not aiming to wound, I'm not aiming to kill...I'm aiming to stop the imminent threat.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Others here have hit on some very good points. I would like to add to that if I may.
I teach a concealed carry class. One thing I emphasize in my class is the value of avoidance. The best fight is no fight. It is a common side effect of carrying a gun that we become more aware. Usually this starts because we are concerned that we are printing so, we constantly look around to see if anyone notices. The good aspect of that is that it creates a mindset of awareness. As you become more comfortable with the gun, you'll still be aware because you've developed the habit. Still, just like shooting, it's a perishable skill and must be practiced.
Here is what I teach in my class:
There is a discussion that goes along with it and we can discuss it more if you like. It is based on Col. Jeff Coopers 4 color codes of awareness and the NRAs 4 terms of awareness; basically the same, one uses color and the other uses words. I combined them.
Anyway, awareness is key. If you don't know the threat exists, you can't defend against it. If you're not aware, you'll never know the threat exists.
I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're talking about this stuff. It makes us all better.
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Thank you for the info, Rastoff. I'm also glad to be here talking about this. It has not only eased my concerns a good bit, but has also given me valuable information from like-minded folks.
When I began to open carry in Arizona, my good friend, who is a retired MP, taught me those same four stages. He also taught me the 21 foot rule. Even though I was mainly armed to protect myself from wild animals, having lived there his entire life, he told me that the opportunity will still be there to run into someone looking to do harm. Maybe they would be illegals desperate for whatever resources I have, maybe I would stumble across something that someone wanted to keep hidden (desert meth labs were common there before Breaking Bad lol), etc. He told me to keep at least 21 feet between me and my cause for alert...even more distance if possible.
It's just crazy to think that we, as the good law-abiding citizens have to not only take such measures to protect ourselves from criminals, but to also protect ourselves from the legal fallout that will surely come afterwards. The only answer I can truly think of to make this situation in America better, is for our politicians to stop protecting criminals' "rights". As far as I'm concerned... Once you go down the road of being a criminal or a thug, you pretty much forfeit any rights you had. Especially in terms of giving the criminal the benefit of the doubt in an altercation with someone who is, by all accounts, law abiding. Unfortunately... Our politicians don't see it that way...because crime does indeed pay. And for that crime to pay, we have to keep criminals on the street. Not only that, but crime also gives our politicians the ability, through fear mongering, to levy new laws and acts to keep us American citizens in check. And with that, I'll climb down off of my soap box.
When I began to open carry in Arizona, my good friend, who is a retired MP, taught me those same four stages. He also taught me the 21 foot rule. Even though I was mainly armed to protect myself from wild animals, having lived there his entire life, he told me that the opportunity will still be there to run into someone looking to do harm. Maybe they would be illegals desperate for whatever resources I have, maybe I would stumble across something that someone wanted to keep hidden (desert meth labs were common there before Breaking Bad lol), etc. He told me to keep at least 21 feet between me and my cause for alert...even more distance if possible.
It's just crazy to think that we, as the good law-abiding citizens have to not only take such measures to protect ourselves from criminals, but to also protect ourselves from the legal fallout that will surely come afterwards. The only answer I can truly think of to make this situation in America better, is for our politicians to stop protecting criminals' "rights". As far as I'm concerned... Once you go down the road of being a criminal or a thug, you pretty much forfeit any rights you had. Especially in terms of giving the criminal the benefit of the doubt in an altercation with someone who is, by all accounts, law abiding. Unfortunately... Our politicians don't see it that way...because crime does indeed pay. And for that crime to pay, we have to keep criminals on the street. Not only that, but crime also gives our politicians the ability, through fear mongering, to levy new laws and acts to keep us American citizens in check. And with that, I'll climb down off of my soap box.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I understand your thinking here and even why you say this. However, this direction can be a slippery slope.
Take Ferguson for example. Who is the criminal in the Wilson vs Brown shooting? Some will tell you that Brown is the criminal and yet others will say it was Wilson. I have my opinion and I'm sure you have yours, but nothing is obvious and we don't have a clear cut answer. So, we have to trust the courts to sort it out. Innocent until proven guilty is a phrase that is already fading, but shouldn't because it's the best way to approach any situation.
Now, if you're talking about those that are already convicted, I completely agree. Those in already prison have been through the trial and as convicted criminals don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us.
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My views on the Michael Brown incident are only views that are supported by evidence, such as the video of him committing strong-armed robbery and the forensic evidence of three coroners and even some witnesses that support Darren Wilson's testimony. Other than that, I was not there, and cannot speculate as to how the events unfolded. All I know is that parents really need to be better about raising there kids these days in terms of law, order, and respect.
But, as to what you said for convicted criminals, that's what I am talking about. Why someone with a rap sheet would ever have the same rights or even the benefit of the doubt in a legal proceeding against someone who has no rap sheet is beyond me. Not saying both side shouldn't be heard and evidence shouldn't be examined though.
But, as to what you said for convicted criminals, that's what I am talking about. Why someone with a rap sheet would ever have the same rights or even the benefit of the doubt in a legal proceeding against someone who has no rap sheet is beyond me. Not saying both side shouldn't be heard and evidence shouldn't be examined though.
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Rastoff has good advice. Avoid the need to use your gun whenever possible.
I've considered all the things you are now and a while ago, I became comfortable with carrying by knowing my gun will not come out unless my life or someone else's is unquestionably in jeopardy.
Under no other circumstance that I can think of will I draw my weapon.
I'm not a cop and I will not effect an arrest for robbery or anything else.
Only for a life threat or serious bodily injury will my weapon see the light.
I've considered all the things you are now and a while ago, I became comfortable with carrying by knowing my gun will not come out unless my life or someone else's is unquestionably in jeopardy.
Under no other circumstance that I can think of will I draw my weapon.
I'm not a cop and I will not effect an arrest for robbery or anything else.
Only for a life threat or serious bodily injury will my weapon see the light.
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I agree, Jessie. I'm not looking to play a cop. I'm not looking to stop a petty crime. I'm not even looking to get involved in domestic disputes. I will call the real cops in for those situations. Basically, if my life or someone else's life is not in immediate danger, my firearm will remain concealed in it's holster.
It's almost mind bending to really think about and research the legal consequences to pulling your legal firearm. One of the main reasons I have waited this long (I'm almost 37) to start carrying is mostly because of those legal consequences. Only now do I feel that our level of violent crime is not only high enough to warrant me to carry, but also high enough for our citizens (both police and those who would be on a jury) and our laws to be more understanding of self defense measures that other fellow citizens might have to take in this day and age. The crazy thing about that crime rate is the more citizens that arm themselves and the more the laws allow for it...the more the crime drops. I want to be a part of that solution, and not an unarmed part of the problem.
It's almost mind bending to really think about and research the legal consequences to pulling your legal firearm. One of the main reasons I have waited this long (I'm almost 37) to start carrying is mostly because of those legal consequences. Only now do I feel that our level of violent crime is not only high enough to warrant me to carry, but also high enough for our citizens (both police and those who would be on a jury) and our laws to be more understanding of self defense measures that other fellow citizens might have to take in this day and age. The crazy thing about that crime rate is the more citizens that arm themselves and the more the laws allow for it...the more the crime drops. I want to be a part of that solution, and not an unarmed part of the problem.
GrandpaDan
US Veteran
I couldn't agree more. The legal consequences of an incident involving a gun (legal) are frightening, however I refuse to be a victim. The income disparity in our country is increasing fast. More desperate people put a greater demand on law enforcement and politicians are only interested in getting re-elected. Thank God we still have the 2nd amendment.
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I've been in 2 arguments before with while i was carrying. I KNEW NOT to pull it out and start waving it around ya know. I just didn't over think it, i guess. **** can/will and does happen, it's to dangerous i feel to play the "what if" game. It's not a movie, because you CAN'T rehearse the stress that's about to hit your mind. I say, carry you gun enjoy your day and focus on the now, not the what if's.
solsen52sr
Member
Conceal Carry Concerns
I see people in the gun shops going nuts with selecting the right CCW firearm, but forget the purpose of it. The reason folks get a CCW is that they are either afraid for their safety, live in a Bad area, have to travel through/work in one and or too old to effectively protect themselves.
Two firearms I use for CC are a Taurus TCP .380 and an S&W model 37. Modification to your concealed carry gun will become a legal issue in any criminal trial or the Civil suit that is sure to follow a shooting that disables permanently of kills a person (the Perpetrator.)
From my experience as a police officer, here are thoughts on the process of escalating force for self-defense or defense of another.
1. The armed citizen has no legally prescribed duty to defend another--only if they want to and there are many levels of assistance before you get to the use of a firearm, remember bad people do not always have guns. Perpetrator could have bare knuckles, a knife or club. There are several doctrines on application of lethal force--check them out locally;
Common Sense escalation of force;
1. Shout Stop!
2. Shout Fire!
3. Pull Fire alarm – Cops always come with Fire Engines and usually the ambulance too –get everybody in one fell swoop.
4. If inside you use a fire extinguisher or fire hose.
5. Call police
6. Throw something at the Perpetrator
7. Call for others to help subdue a Perpetrator
8. It is your final Option // Choice to use deadly force (if you chose - because your life will never be the same after shooting someone) only one comment should be uttered, preferably while on the Phone to 911 "Stop or I'll shoot"
9. If the Perpetrator does not stop and the victim is about to be killed fire you weapon. Warning shot is ok if you have safe background. You can always shoot again in needed.
10. Wait for the police with an unloaded, locked back slide, magazine removed/open cylinder with firearm laying on the floor and hands up!!
REMEMBER THEY DO NOT KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE HERO!!
Now what gun do I want and when do I carry it.
1. .380 ammo is close to 9MM quick nighttime trip to the store or any time you want --these little pocket pistols are pervasive!!
When considering the Firearm and its application in regard to the Threat or Protection assessments remember:
a. Semi-autos can and do jam – know the drills to correct malfunctions
b. Very very few people shoot these small semi-autos on a regular basis
c. Ammo is not cheap and not worth reloading (liability issue)
d. Dry-firing practice with small guns may not be a good idea, ask Mfgr.
e. Shots past 21 feet may be considered premature or even offensive acts. May be better to run if able. Generally, sights are useless, since a true defensive shot is at point blank range. Check gunfight statistics from the FBI.
2. When I am out with Mrs. and I have to protect another, thinking changes;
a. Out comes the 38 Spl. I regularly practice with light target loads and use the sights.
b. Functionality and reliability are paramount
c. Escape is the plan (many forget this)
d. Why some CCW civilians carry a 15 rd. firearm with three (3) spare mags I do not understand unless they are in Mosul or Cop on duty.
Did not mean to babble on but people should be informed as much as they can because if that moment ever comes, and I sincerely hope it never does, knowledge can keep you out of Jail – George Zimmerman was damn lucky.
Shoot safe, Shoot often and try hitting the target as much as you can!!
I see people in the gun shops going nuts with selecting the right CCW firearm, but forget the purpose of it. The reason folks get a CCW is that they are either afraid for their safety, live in a Bad area, have to travel through/work in one and or too old to effectively protect themselves.
Two firearms I use for CC are a Taurus TCP .380 and an S&W model 37. Modification to your concealed carry gun will become a legal issue in any criminal trial or the Civil suit that is sure to follow a shooting that disables permanently of kills a person (the Perpetrator.)
From my experience as a police officer, here are thoughts on the process of escalating force for self-defense or defense of another.
1. The armed citizen has no legally prescribed duty to defend another--only if they want to and there are many levels of assistance before you get to the use of a firearm, remember bad people do not always have guns. Perpetrator could have bare knuckles, a knife or club. There are several doctrines on application of lethal force--check them out locally;
Common Sense escalation of force;
1. Shout Stop!
2. Shout Fire!
3. Pull Fire alarm – Cops always come with Fire Engines and usually the ambulance too –get everybody in one fell swoop.
4. If inside you use a fire extinguisher or fire hose.
5. Call police
6. Throw something at the Perpetrator
7. Call for others to help subdue a Perpetrator
8. It is your final Option // Choice to use deadly force (if you chose - because your life will never be the same after shooting someone) only one comment should be uttered, preferably while on the Phone to 911 "Stop or I'll shoot"
9. If the Perpetrator does not stop and the victim is about to be killed fire you weapon. Warning shot is ok if you have safe background. You can always shoot again in needed.
10. Wait for the police with an unloaded, locked back slide, magazine removed/open cylinder with firearm laying on the floor and hands up!!
REMEMBER THEY DO NOT KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE HERO!!
Now what gun do I want and when do I carry it.
1. .380 ammo is close to 9MM quick nighttime trip to the store or any time you want --these little pocket pistols are pervasive!!
When considering the Firearm and its application in regard to the Threat or Protection assessments remember:
a. Semi-autos can and do jam – know the drills to correct malfunctions
b. Very very few people shoot these small semi-autos on a regular basis
c. Ammo is not cheap and not worth reloading (liability issue)
d. Dry-firing practice with small guns may not be a good idea, ask Mfgr.
e. Shots past 21 feet may be considered premature or even offensive acts. May be better to run if able. Generally, sights are useless, since a true defensive shot is at point blank range. Check gunfight statistics from the FBI.
2. When I am out with Mrs. and I have to protect another, thinking changes;
a. Out comes the 38 Spl. I regularly practice with light target loads and use the sights.
b. Functionality and reliability are paramount
c. Escape is the plan (many forget this)
d. Why some CCW civilians carry a 15 rd. firearm with three (3) spare mags I do not understand unless they are in Mosul or Cop on duty.
Did not mean to babble on but people should be informed as much as they can because if that moment ever comes, and I sincerely hope it never does, knowledge can keep you out of Jail – George Zimmerman was damn lucky.
Shoot safe, Shoot often and try hitting the target as much as you can!!
jlrhiner
US Veteran
I don't really believe that anyone has ever been prosecuted or sued for using a modified arm (legal modifications) or reloaded ammunition. Sure, if you file the sear off your gat and accidentally shoot 7 people, your going to the greybar hotel. But smoothing out a trigger, adding night sights or polishing a feed ramp isn't proof your a bloodthirsty loon no more than installing those 850 Holly twin lines on your '76 Trans Am makes you the Bandit.
As far as the civil liabilities from a self defense situation, more and more states are re-enforcing their Castle Laws (or passing new ones) preventing anyone from suing you if you use your firearm in self defense. If your state dosen't have this in their law (Mo. does) start working to get one passed.
In my opinion, the greatest thing you can take with you while armed is common sense. It sounds like your on the right path.
As far as the civil liabilities from a self defense situation, more and more states are re-enforcing their Castle Laws (or passing new ones) preventing anyone from suing you if you use your firearm in self defense. If your state dosen't have this in their law (Mo. does) start working to get one passed.
In my opinion, the greatest thing you can take with you while armed is common sense. It sounds like your on the right path.
solsen52sr
Member
Castle Doctrine
Hi Jim,
You are correct the best thing to take with you to a deadly encounter beside the firearm is, common sense and understanding of the laws. I tried to specify that the situation I was referring to was in public not in your home. While the Castle Document (which is getting more use in the courts) has greater legal latitude for a Civilian defending their Home, Family and the method and means they use to protect themselves. However, the Castle Doctrine is not applicable to the street, but may have foundation for affirmative defense if you are in your car and attacked.
In fact, Civilians (even under the Castle Doctrine or Stand your Ground Statutes) are obliged to retreat as far as possible before using deadly force. The must show that they did everything possible to avoid using deadly force. However, a Police Officer has no duty to retreat as they are defending the Community at large.
Smart lawyers, when litigating for Civil damages, will find a way to mention gun modifications and in a Civil trial "Reasonable Doubt Doctrine” does not protect the accused (Civilian Shooter). A preponderance of evidence (51%) is all that is needed to take a healthy chunk, if not all of your net worth.
Hope that make my comment clearer.
Hi Jim,
You are correct the best thing to take with you to a deadly encounter beside the firearm is, common sense and understanding of the laws. I tried to specify that the situation I was referring to was in public not in your home. While the Castle Document (which is getting more use in the courts) has greater legal latitude for a Civilian defending their Home, Family and the method and means they use to protect themselves. However, the Castle Doctrine is not applicable to the street, but may have foundation for affirmative defense if you are in your car and attacked.
In fact, Civilians (even under the Castle Doctrine or Stand your Ground Statutes) are obliged to retreat as far as possible before using deadly force. The must show that they did everything possible to avoid using deadly force. However, a Police Officer has no duty to retreat as they are defending the Community at large.
Smart lawyers, when litigating for Civil damages, will find a way to mention gun modifications and in a Civil trial "Reasonable Doubt Doctrine” does not protect the accused (Civilian Shooter). A preponderance of evidence (51%) is all that is needed to take a healthy chunk, if not all of your net worth.
Hope that make my comment clearer.
wheelgunguy
Member
I have to agree with the posters that have pointed out that a lot of how you are feeling is that you appreciate the great responsibility of carrying a firearm. That is a really good thing.
You probably have already done this but in case you haven't thought of it yet. Is your boot knife legal in your area? The reason I ask is that God forbid you ever need to use your gun and do everything right but end up getting legitimately charged with illegally carrying a weapon. Obviously a snafu you just wouldn't need after such an incident. A civil attorney would almost definitely bring it up if there were to be a suit. In know way am I implying that you are breaking the law. Good luck to you and your wife.
You probably have already done this but in case you haven't thought of it yet. Is your boot knife legal in your area? The reason I ask is that God forbid you ever need to use your gun and do everything right but end up getting legitimately charged with illegally carrying a weapon. Obviously a snafu you just wouldn't need after such an incident. A civil attorney would almost definitely bring it up if there were to be a suit. In know way am I implying that you are breaking the law. Good luck to you and your wife.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Can you post a link to any law or case law that corroborates this statement?
In California you have no such obligation.
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sgtsandman
US Veteran
Aside from what has been previously mentioned, make sure you know the laws for where you are going to carry. Every State is different in the details. What applies in PA will not be the same in OH, as an example. Castle Doctrine is different for each State as well and not every State has a "Stand Your Ground" law. Also, how the police and prosecutor handle things is going to be very different from location to location. Just be cause you did everything legally, it doesn't mean they will treat you that way. Look at the couple from Florida that got stopped in New Jersey as an example.
Now I'm going to stress that most police are not like that and not every prosecutor is out to make an example of you. But the system as a whole sucks. Figure that you may end up spending at least a year of your life defending your actions and building up a very expensive legal bill in the process, even with an acquittal. It's better to be alive and deal with the aftermath but be prepared for it. If you are very lucky, neither the police or the prosecutor will press charges but there will be a lot of questions.
Now I'm going to stress that most police are not like that and not every prosecutor is out to make an example of you. But the system as a whole sucks. Figure that you may end up spending at least a year of your life defending your actions and building up a very expensive legal bill in the process, even with an acquittal. It's better to be alive and deal with the aftermath but be prepared for it. If you are very lucky, neither the police or the prosecutor will press charges but there will be a lot of questions.
wheelgunguy
Member
Are you sure about this? I have had multiple LEOs and attorneys tell me different here in Ohio.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
From what I've read, some States with Castle Doctrine still have a "duty to retreat" clause. No State that has Stand Your Ground does.
wheelgunguy
Member
From the Ohio State Bar Association
https://www.ohiobar.org/forpublic/resources/lawyoucanuse/pages/lawyoucanuse-333.aspx
sgtsandman
US Veteran
Thank you for the information but I'm lost as to why you quoted me. Some States still have a duty to retreat in their Castle Doctrine law, not all.
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