I support the Second Amendment ( As long as you practice it in a way that I approve of)
As I've stated earlier I'm not particularly a fan of GLOCKs or James Yeager but I thought that video was appropriate to the thread
M&P 9 vs Glock 19
- Thread starter Rastoff
- Start date
I support the Second Amendment ( As long as you practice it in a way that I approve of)
As I've stated earlier I'm not particularly a fan of GLOCKs or James Yeager but I thought that video was appropriate to the thread
I guess, as Smoke alluded to, the G19 is the DUFF of pistols.
That was a reference to the video.
James Yeager compared a 1911 to a stripper, good looking fun to show off to your friends but very picky and very high maintenance.
He compared a GLOCK to a fat girl, not quite as good looking but if you call her in the middle of the night she'll be there
M&P 9 vs Glock 19
Hey Rastoff, hope all is well out there. All ok in Tampa.
Well, bearing in mind I'm still a noob, I'll focus on the H&K VP9, since having it for a month, I'm pretty familiar with it. In no particular order, I think the key 'design' features on the VP9 absent on the Glock include:
- Three sizes of back strap and three sets of side panels, mean 27 configurable grip configurations.
- Extractor that acts as a loaded chamber indicator, as well as a red 'cocked' indicator at the rear of the slide
- Cold hammer forged barrels, with internal 'fouling ring' and polygonal rifling, guaranteed for 15,000 service rounds.
- "Charging supports" on the slide. These allow those with smaller hands or less strength (i.e. me, my wife) to more easily grasp the slide.
- Ability to field strip the pistol without having to manipulate the trigger. Avoids an area of risk of ND.
- Designed in 'indents' at the base of the mag well, to aid in magazine removal.
This is all at a comparable price point (I paid $599 for mine) to the Glock. The VP9 feels good in the hand, shoots straight, and has so far been trouble free. Being an HK, I don't anticipate any reliability issues.
Anyways, just my 0.02; Glock was and still is a tremendous design, it's just that I think the evolution and innovation in the firearms industry taking place in the last few years, has many new buyers turning from Glock 'perfection' to, well, 'better perfection.'
Plus, it does look pretty hawt.
Hey Rastoff, hope all is well out there. All ok in Tampa.
Well, bearing in mind I'm still a noob, I'll focus on the H&K VP9, since having it for a month, I'm pretty familiar with it. In no particular order, I think the key 'design' features on the VP9 absent on the Glock include:
- Three sizes of back strap and three sets of side panels, mean 27 configurable grip configurations.
- Extractor that acts as a loaded chamber indicator, as well as a red 'cocked' indicator at the rear of the slide
- Cold hammer forged barrels, with internal 'fouling ring' and polygonal rifling, guaranteed for 15,000 service rounds.
- "Charging supports" on the slide. These allow those with smaller hands or less strength (i.e. me, my wife) to more easily grasp the slide.
- Ability to field strip the pistol without having to manipulate the trigger. Avoids an area of risk of ND.
- Designed in 'indents' at the base of the mag well, to aid in magazine removal.
This is all at a comparable price point (I paid $599 for mine) to the Glock. The VP9 feels good in the hand, shoots straight, and has so far been trouble free. Being an HK, I don't anticipate any reliability issues.
Anyways, just my 0.02; Glock was and still is a tremendous design, it's just that I think the evolution and innovation in the firearms industry taking place in the last few years, has many new buyers turning from Glock 'perfection' to, well, 'better perfection.'
Plus, it does look pretty hawt.
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"- Ability to field strip the pistol without having to manipulate the trigger. Avoids an area of risk of ND."
That there cracks me up. What? People don't know how to clear their gun before maintenance.
That there cracks me up. What? People don't know how to clear their gun before maintenance.
"- Ability to field strip the pistol without having to manipulate the trigger. Avoids an area of risk of ND."
That there cracks me up. What? People don't know how to clear their gun before maintenance.
That's the beauty of it all. You don't have to "get it". I do because it's my gun.
Back at cha.
PS Just joshin'
I'm not understanding the reasoning behind "I always have my children with me. I carry M&P because of the external safety". Is the firearm not on your person? Is the firearm left unattended and its your feeling the safety makes it fail safe if it finds its way into their hands?
I totally understand opting for the safety, (I've got the Shield with one) just not for the reason you stated. Maybe it's just me.
It's all down to personal preference and price. M&P, PPQ, VP9, G19 are all accurate reliable guns. Personally I like the M&P but I have modded it the PPQ and VP9 are good to go out of the box. The G19 could use a trigger mod and better sights. The M&P is the only gun with 17 round mags as standard flush fit. Since you like 1911's you could add a P30/P30L to this list that along with the VP9 has an excellent grip but the texture is better on the P30/P30L but they cost more and the trigger is shorter on the VP9. The Sig P320 holds 17 rounds and offers a lot of options but I really don't like the look of it, but that's me
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Interesting, but these features were first introduced on the Glock. It was one of the first pistols to have an extractor that acts both as a visual and tactile chamber loaded indicator.
They also first came with polygonal rifling. I don't know if they still do, but I'm not convinced it's all that much better. "Cold hammer forged" is just marketing hype. I have done a lot of research on how barrels are manufactured and can't find any evidence that this or any other manufacturing methodology is better in a defensive pistol. Maybe for precision pistols and rifles where they need to put up groups of .1" or better to compete, but not for accuracies where a hand span is good enough.
Yeah, for Type III malfunction clearance this is definitely an edge. I have an H&K USP with the same design. While these indents do help, in timed malfunction drills I don't find any speed advantage. For anything other than a Type III malfunction, or some other damage, the indents serve no purpose. Mags should drop freely when the mag catch is pressed.
Yep, for some this is a tremendous advantage. I have large hands and the grip size isn't an issue for me. This is one reason I'm looking at the G19. The grip of the 17 is too large and the 26 is too small. The G19 is just right for me (even though it's the wrong angle).
I'd have to manipulate the VP9 slide to assess this for myself. I've operated guns with similar features before and didn't like it. I've been perfectly happy with the regular slide serrations.
Yes, Amen and Yes again. This is something I consider the "fatal flaw" in Glocks. Surely they could have come up with something better. Yeah, yeah, I know, do a chamber check before field stripping the gun. Blah, blah, blah. Anyone who says this is correct, but having to pull the trigger to field strip the gun is just a negligent discharge waiting to happen. Glock is not alone in this. The Ruger Mark I, II and III also have this flaw.
This is a very good thing too. Most H&K guns are very pricey. This price point would indeed lead me toward the VP9 because it does have some really nice features. Alas, it's not available to me.
Thanks for the well thought out response. I wasn't intending to pick your post apart, but it seems I have. I just wanted to make some of my own comments. H&K has some excellent designs in their guns.
How is the bore height of the VP9 compared to the M&P?
The first polygonal pistol barrel AFAIK was on the H&K P9 and the first poly pistol was the H&K VP 70 both of which predate the Glock 17 by 12 years. Cold hammer forged is a bit misleading because a polygonal barrel is forged from the outside whereas a land and groove barrel is machined from the inside. There are many advantages to polygonal barrels but the main disadvantage is you shouldn't shoot lead or cast bullets without frequent cleaning. I don't know why someone doesn't make an aftermarket polygonal barrel for the M&P even aftermarket barrels for Glocks are land and groove.
Polygonal rifling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Polygonal rifling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
kbm6893
Member
Polygonal rifling means no shooting lead bullets. Any slight increase in accuracy is lost on not being able to shoot lead. Reloaders often choose lead for the cost.
Pulling the trigger is a serious design flaw. ND's happen. Can't deny it. They happen with experienced shooters and new shooters alike. People screw up. Any every Glock fan uses the same mall ninja response to it "keep your boogerhook off the bang switch". Trying to sound like some Navy SEAL of something.
And my God, is that VP UGLY! I'm sure it's a quality piece, but it reminds me of a Hi Point!
Pulling the trigger is a serious design flaw. ND's happen. Can't deny it. They happen with experienced shooters and new shooters alike. People screw up. Any every Glock fan uses the same mall ninja response to it "keep your boogerhook off the bang switch". Trying to sound like some Navy SEAL of something.
And my God, is that VP UGLY! I'm sure it's a quality piece, but it reminds me of a Hi Point!
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kbm6893
Member
I think he means that since he has kids with him, he wants the extra layer of safety that a manual safety gives. I'm sure he doesn't leave his gun with the kids. All my semis have a manual safety. The biggest reason I don't own a Glock.
kbm6893
Member
That's the beauty of it all. You don't have to "get it". I do because it's my gun.
Oh I know. Don't matter to me what people do with their guns. It's a free country and you're free to spend your money on whatever you want. Just saying that industry is driven by a small percentage of gun owners. And I highly doubt that there is not a part for an M&P that cannot be ordered online.
This is the industry that spawned the official "Glock Bayonet"! What a company to put their name on such a joke of a product. And I am sure they sell!
And let's not forget the official Glock entrenching tool! How did our boys dig all those trenches in WW II, Korea, and Vietnam without that?
And let's not forget the official Glock range bag, hats, and t-shirts! If you're gonna carry "perfection", you might as well do it in style!
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Arik
Member
If you're field stripping the gun without
clearing it first you already have problems. Pulling the trigger on a Glock is not the issue.
HK guns are pricy, when new. Used you can get them easily for under $500. My LGS has about 6 of them. USP full size and compact in 9, 40 and P2000 in 9 and 40. None of them are over $500
Arik
Member
It's not really a mall ninja Seal thing. It's a safety thing. Yes keep your fingers of the trigger. One of the basic rules. This goes for every gun. People do screw up but it's not any better when you're pulling the slide off with a round still chambered
No problem. I took the question as from someone I respect tremendously that had a genuine interest. I appreciate your comments.
I am by no means an expert as you know, but I would guess the bore height is a few mm higher in the VP9 over the M&P. I would also say that it appears to have no effect on my shooting.
I continue to use a high, firm, two handed grip. Lately I've moved my support hand higher and forward; based on a video I saw on grip from Mr. Bob Vogel. With the addition of a very firm hold, torquing "in" on the upper part of my grip, I feel it's helped isolate my trigger press better. My current best on a B-8 target at 25 yards standing unsupported is 83-2X, which is a vast improvement over last year.
Separate from the VP9, but on H&K: I had the opportunity this past weekend to shoot a few other HK pistols: A USP 45, a USP 9 Compact, and two of the squeeze cockers; one P7M8 and a P7M13. It was very interesting, but probably not on topic, so I'll leave my impressions for the "other firearm" forum.
At any rate, I don't intend to sell my M&P FS9, it works pretty well, and with the 10 8 FO / rear blacked out rears and Apex D/CAEK, shoots accurately enough, and has been 100% reliable. Still love the ergos on it over the Glock; I just could not get my head wrapped around the grip angle of Gaston's products.
Rich
PS Thanks again for the pistol bag Karma, I am still using it.
Rick_A
Member
I personally feel the S&W is the better made gun...but the mid size Glock is the perfect size.
They both work just as well so it really boils down to a matter of taste.
The Glock is like the AR-15 of the pistol world in that everyone seems to have/has had one and folks love to tinker with them, but instead of troubles in Vietnam there was the .40S&W kaboom drama.
I used to be super picky on what I liked or didn't like. These days, while I have my favorites, they all work and shoot pretty well for me.
They both work just as well so it really boils down to a matter of taste.
The Glock is like the AR-15 of the pistol world in that everyone seems to have/has had one and folks love to tinker with them, but instead of troubles in Vietnam there was the .40S&W kaboom drama.
I used to be super picky on what I liked or didn't like. These days, while I have my favorites, they all work and shoot pretty well for me.
BillyWayne
Member
I am a big fan of the Glock 19. It is a great reliable gun with the almost perfect size (for me anyway). I have carried one concealed with an IWB in the appendix area with no issue. I have done a lot of trigger jobs on Glocks. My friends bring theirs to me as well. Usually some polishing and sometimes a different connector and spring.
I own a M&P 9FS and a compact. The grip is better to me than the Glock. With the Apex trigger kits they are fantastic. I also polish them before installing them. The M&P FS is the softest shooting 9 I own. It is almost strange when shooting it, but I like it.
I recently was on a quest for a new 9 when I compared the Glock 19 gen 4, Sig 320, HK VP9 and Walther PPQ. I could have and maybe will end up with one of each. The 2 factors that I seem to value most are grip/feel and trigger. I bought the PPQ. It had the best trigger of them all and it feels great in the hand. I spend a lot of time doing trigger jobs on all sorts of guns and have come to be appreciate the finer points, design and feel of them.
The Glock gen 4 still feels blocky in the hand and needs a bit of trigger polishing.
The Sig 320 feels chunky and the trigger was not that impressive. It could use some smoothing out. It also has a high bore axis and does have some snap to it compared to the others including the M&P.
The VP9 can be configured to fit the hand quit well. It does feel great in the hand and has a nice trigger feel. It was less snappy in recoil than the Sig but more than a Glock or M&P and similar to the PPQ.
I like all of all the ones stated and would have been happy with any of them. Right now the VP9 and Glock 19 gen 4 are on my short list. Just not sure which one or when.
I own a M&P 9FS and a compact. The grip is better to me than the Glock. With the Apex trigger kits they are fantastic. I also polish them before installing them. The M&P FS is the softest shooting 9 I own. It is almost strange when shooting it, but I like it.
I recently was on a quest for a new 9 when I compared the Glock 19 gen 4, Sig 320, HK VP9 and Walther PPQ. I could have and maybe will end up with one of each. The 2 factors that I seem to value most are grip/feel and trigger. I bought the PPQ. It had the best trigger of them all and it feels great in the hand. I spend a lot of time doing trigger jobs on all sorts of guns and have come to be appreciate the finer points, design and feel of them.
The Glock gen 4 still feels blocky in the hand and needs a bit of trigger polishing.
The Sig 320 feels chunky and the trigger was not that impressive. It could use some smoothing out. It also has a high bore axis and does have some snap to it compared to the others including the M&P.
The VP9 can be configured to fit the hand quit well. It does feel great in the hand and has a nice trigger feel. It was less snappy in recoil than the Sig but more than a Glock or M&P and similar to the PPQ.
I like all of all the ones stated and would have been happy with any of them. Right now the VP9 and Glock 19 gen 4 are on my short list. Just not sure which one or when.
Ranger514
Member
I owned a G19 back in the early 90s. Never liked the trigger, so I let it go shortly thereafter. About that time, my agency transitioned to Sig Sauer. I readily adjusted to the DA/SA of the P229, which is what I carried for 20 years, and bought my own P239 for off duty carry and HD.
Last summer, I picked up a Gen4 G19 and was surprised by what appeared to be improved ergonomics and a much smoother trigger than I recall on the older model G19. I bought one as my retirement gift to myself, and when I got it out to the range, I was glad I did. It's a very accurate and a reliable high capacity handgun that has replaced my personally owned, off duty carry P239. Not disrespecting Sigs...I still own and carry one every day now that I'm retired. They're fine handguns, but in my hands, the G19 simply out shot the Sig P239, and provided nearly twice the ammo capacity for a much more reasonable price. With the addition of Streamlight to its rail, the G19 has become my bedside HD handgun.
Last summer, I picked up a Gen4 G19 and was surprised by what appeared to be improved ergonomics and a much smoother trigger than I recall on the older model G19. I bought one as my retirement gift to myself, and when I got it out to the range, I was glad I did. It's a very accurate and a reliable high capacity handgun that has replaced my personally owned, off duty carry P239. Not disrespecting Sigs...I still own and carry one every day now that I'm retired. They're fine handguns, but in my hands, the G19 simply out shot the Sig P239, and provided nearly twice the ammo capacity for a much more reasonable price. With the addition of Streamlight to its rail, the G19 has become my bedside HD handgun.
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