Excessive slide to frame play?

[GetRekt]

If I had $1.00 for each post by an experienced shooter that was hitting low-left and insisting that it was the gun and not the shooter, I could buy another M&P.

By the way, the sights on these things are designed to have the front dot on point of aim, not 6 O'clock. Image #3 is correct.

Why would a switch of ammo turn the gun into a tack driver? I changed nothing, except ammo. The gun shoots fine with blazer brass.

Also my sight picture was fine. If I didn't hold high, then I had to set the sight post way above the normal place. Equal height, equal light. Except equal height on this gun was shooting way low.


I can tell where this is going. I know my abilities, and I know I can shoot m&ps. I can drive tacks with my wife's shield, but this gun with certain ammo can't even group. If you think it's me, that's your prerogative.

By the way, sight picture 3 is how I shoot all my pistols. All 18 of them...


And as I noted in the OP (maybe go back and read it? It might help with the discussion) I switched the sights to trijicon HDs.

I urge you to look at the groups. They are foot wide groups at 5 and 6 yards. That's ridiculous. Look at the video I posted. I can shoot 4 inch groups if shooting fast, and can shrink that easily shooting slow. A group of around a foot is unacceptable.

Again, when I switched ammo the gun was a tack driver. I laid 4 bullets in literally almost the same hole. The rest of the box went like that, all good.

 

[GetRekt]

I'm assuming that all the holes in the Shoot-N-C are with the Blazer, is that correct?

Yes, the holes in the larger target make up a very loose group. However, I don't see any fliers. Allow me to explain what I mean. In typical target shooting parlance, the term "flier" denotes a shot that is atypical from the rest. So, if you had a 3" group that was low and left and then one shot that was high and right, the high/right shot would be considered a flier. This picture is a demonstration of what I mean (pulled from a random source on the internet):

The one hole in the 8 ring would be considered a flier.

In your pictures I don't see any fliers, just an open group. This is not a comment on your shooting. I'm just defining what I think of when I hear the term flier. It's not uncommon to see even an experienced shooter with a new gun, especially the M&P, start with very open groups. This is why I suggest shooting from a rest to diagnose problems with accuracy. Using a rest helps eliminate the human factor. Let's face it, none of use can hold perfectly still.



Do you have a picture of one of these groups? You're a really good shooter and this is world class performance. I would love to have you join us in this little fun shooting exercise: http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...746-rastoffs-challenge-dropping-gauntlet.html It will be easy for you and I'd love to see how you'd shoot it with your G19. They are nice guns and I'm thinking of getting one myself.



The bullet tumbling issue is a poser. Did you have any that looked like they key-holed with the Blazer ammo? Again, in case you missed it, were all the holes on the Shoot-N-C done with the Blazer ammo?

I understand, my use of the word flier was inaccurate. I'd like to not get hung up on semantics if we can though.

Yes that group from the 19 is with the suspect ammo, not the blazer. Note that even with the 19 the groups are looser than usual (refer to video) but better than the m&p.


Also, this isn't my first m&p. I can shoot my wife's shield extremely well, a lot better than my glock 43 actually which is a very similar pistol. Off hand, just like I shoot everything, the shield is very very accurate.

I say again, this isn't an "I got my first m&p and I can't shoot it for ****" issue. I shoot m&p very well, which is what prompted me to choose this for competition over the glock 34.

No, I did not have any suspected key holes with the 19, even with the bad ammo.

Sure I'll join the competition. I'd really love to get this pistol I bought specifically for competition working first, though. I have/had big plans for this gun.

 

[GetRekt]

Redid the video, this one specifically for S&W in case they wanted to see what I am calling about today. This shows the play much better. Really just posting in case anyone wanted to see it. First video was kind of ****.

http://youtu.be/mi77wAih3xg

 

[RalphMP9FS]

That's a better video. They can squeeze the slide in a vise and reduce the gap, if the frame guides are in tolerance. That much rattle would drive me insane, and I would never look at it again as a quality handgun.

 

[Krell1]

I have a .45 Colt that has no "slop" at all. It's custom however and it's what I expect from a custom gun. Military Colts had an abundance of so-called slop so they'd work under adverse conditions. Back in the day when I could shoot, I tried a government issue .45 and did well to hit paper. They were built that way and everybody that bought or acquired one always did some amount of accurizing. Unless a gun is hand fitted I wouldn't expect a tight fitting gun.

 

[GetRekt]

That's a better video. They can squeeze it in a vise and reduce the frame gap if the frame guides are in tolerance. That much rattle would drive me insane, and I would never look at it again as a quality handgun.

I don't think I'll be able to get over it either. I just sent S&W an email with a link to the video. Hopefully they take care of me, but from what I've seen they basically just say that this is "within spec" judging from other posts on this subject.


I'm disappointed to say the least. Especially since this is a "pro" model.

I very much was excited to get this gun for competition, but I feel like I should have just stuck with glock at this point. Hopefully that changes.

 

[shlike]

What is "Keyholing" as has been mentioned in this thread?

 

[GetRekt]

What is "Keyholing" as has been mentioned in this thread?

The bullet is tumbling in the air, no longer flying straight.

With rifles, the boat tail bullet generally makes a "key hole" appearance if it hits broadside.

 

[PHolster]

I appreciate the input, but let me be clear I am far from a novice handgun shooter. I shoot about 1500 rounds each month, and I have been for years.

I'm not a novice shooter either, I have been shooting for 42 years, and was shooting as much as you until I moved last month. It doesn't matter how much or how long you have been shooting, when you are having an issue with POI, it is always best to remove all variables and shoot from a rest to discount or confirm the gun being the issue. Once you have done that, you can move on, without doing that, you are still making guesses without knowing how the gun actually shoots.

 

[RobzGuns]

I just sent S&W an email with a link to the video. Hopefully they take care of me, but from what I've seen they basically just say that this is "within spec" judging from other posts on this subject.

I'm disappointed to say the least. Especially since this is a "pro" model.

It can sometimes take a few days to get a response to an email. If you want a quicker response and be able to possibly discuss the issue as they view the video, you may want to give them a call.

I'd be disappointed as well. To be honest, I've tried all the M&Ps S&W makes and the only one I've liked enough to buy is the Shield. My 'Club' guns are Glock and XDM.

Give CS a call... Don't depend on the email to be sufficient.
and good luck.!

 

[Muss Muggins]

Yes, I inspected it at length just because I was initially confused/curious. I've shot these shoot n' sees for many many years. I'm pretty familiar with what typical bullet holes look like, and that's why I caught it.


This was the second and only other keyhole I got. This was the very first round fired into this particular shoot n see incedentally, and also the first round of this mag.

Respectfully, there is no way in Hades that a factory round out of a factory barrel of the same caliber will "keyhole" at 7 yards or less. Physics does not allow it.

 

[GetRekt]

Respectfully, there is no way in Hades that a factory round out of a factory barrel of the same caliber will "keyhole" at 7 yards or less. Physics does not allow it.

Well, I'd have to say that is absolutely false, with evidence.

Even rifles with 16+ inch barrels can key hole at 10 yards or less. So you're telling me a pistol can't key hole 3 yards closer in? Please.

I can bring up a few instances of a shot out AR15 barrel (or poor ammo) key holing at 10 yards with some digging. With one quick google I can bring up at least one example within minutes.


So a rifle with a barrel 3 times as long as the M&P can key hole at 10 yards, but the M&P can't key hole at 7 yards?


Tell me more about your physics. Go back to science school.

 

[GetRekt]

It can sometimes take a few days to get a response to an email. If you want a quicker response and be able to possibly discuss the issue as they view the video, you may want to give them a call.

I'd be disappointed as well. To be honest, I've tried all the M&Ps S&W makes and the only one I've liked enough to buy is the Shield. My 'Club' guns are Glock and XDM.

Give CS a call... Don't depend on the email to be sufficient.
and good luck.!

I actually did call. The girl told me the only way to get them to view a video would be through email, and I'd have to wait for a response. I'll give them a call again later to see if I can actually speak to someone who knows the guns.

The girl I spoke to thought I was talking about a revolver, despite telling her 3 times I was calling about an M&P Pro.

 

[Rastoff]

For the record, S&W does make an M&P revolver.

 

[GetRekt]

For the record, S&W does make an M&P revolver.

Right, I know that. The girl I spoke to obviously did not. She corrected me when I said "slide play" and said, "do you mean cylinder play?"

I repeated twice more, "No Ma'am, I'm talking about an M&P Pro 9 mm."

 

[Bob O]

It disgusts me when people say a person is whining just because they post about a problem. Yes, this is a freakin' problem, not just for any pistol, but especially a Pro model.

Stay here please and try to ignore the name-callers. I'm on your side and so are others.

 

[GetRekt]

It disgusts me when people say a person is whining just because they post about a problem. Yes, this is a freakin' problem, not just for any pistol, but especially a Pro model.

Stay here please and try to ignore the name-callers. I'm on your side and so are others.

I appreciate that, but I am genuinely not trying to get any sides going. I'm disappointed, and I'd like to resolve the issue - whatever it may be.

Sure, I probably used this forum to vent a little. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I guess my frustration showed through.

I am waiting to hear back from S&W and will fill you guys in on what they say. In the mean time, it's back to the glock 19, especially for the GADPA competition I have tonight.


I do appreciate the help you guys have given me, and the input. Please don't think I'm a know it all that isn't open to criticism/suggestions - even though I may come off that way from time to time.

Thanks guys.

 

[Bob O]

Some people aren't likely to "approve" of what I'm going to post in a few days.

Good luck in your competition! And I hope S&W takes care of this slop for you.

 

[tonesurfer]

My M&P Pro rattles like that when shaken. So does my M&P Full Size. My Sheild, not so much.

On my Pro I don't have nearly the amount of slop you seem to have at the muzzle end. On the rear they appear to be the same.

Good luck dealing with S&W. I've sent video's to them in the past. I was told flat out that the "gunsmith's" don't have computers nor the time to look at video's. You will have to get this escalated somehow to get someone to look at the video and communicate with the gunsmith's. It took me two round trips to S&W to have them look at a video concerning sloppy roll pin fit. And in the end I was told that there was no problem as far as they were concerned.

Best of luck. But if I were to place any bets, based on my own past experiences, you'll get your gun back with a nice form letter saying "It's fine".

 

[Bob O]

My years old M&P 40 full size with several thousand rounds through it has nearly no slop in it and for sure doesn't rattle......that's the way they "should" be.