3rd Gen Magazines - Pre-Ban vs. Post-Ban

[TTSH]

+++ Warning: Moonbat State Discussion Ahead +++​

While a ton has been written about the pre-ban vs. post-ban magazines of a certain highly successful Austrian plastic handgun manufacturer... and about AR magazines as well... very little has been written about pre-ban vs. post-ban 3rd Gen magazines. I'm talking 3rd Gen magazines over 10 rounds manufactured before the Federal AWB (pre-1994) vs. manufactured after the Federal AWB expired (Sept 2004). This is a big deal where I live because pre-ban "hi-cap" magazines are perfectly legal for LTC-A holders while the same magazines in post-ban are a felony and can land you in state prison for a whole lot of years.

And I am too old and soft to spend the rest of my sorry life in a Massachusetts state prison over the date a small metal box with a spring was manufactured.

Can anyone point me to a discussion on the issue of 3rd Gen pre-ban vs. post-ban "hi-cap" magazines? Alternatively, can anyone give me a few hints about what to look for?

Obviously, this isn't an issue for factory .45 magazines. It's mostly an issue for 9mm double stacks and some .40 double stacks. And I'm pretty clear about 1st and 2nd Gen magazines. It's really just the 3rd Gen magazines where I can't tell much difference.

I'm finding myself in the dubious, risky position of taking a seller's word for it one way or the other. I'd like to feel a little more secure about what these seller's are telling me and selling me.

Thanks!

 

[handgunner356]

Well if there are markings to show post-ban from pre-ban I've yet to see them on 5906 mags. The only way you could be sure of a pre-ban would be if it had 14rd or fewer witness holes, but late pre-ban were 15rd marked and look the same as current production.

 

[GaryS]

There are no markings on post ban 5906/6906 magazines, at least I've never seen them.

The only ones that clearly should be avoided are the ones that say "For law enforcement or military use only". I've seen some 6906 magazines marked that way at gun shows.

Something else to consider is that it wasn't that long between the end of the AWB and the end of 3rd Gen production. It's possible that Smith just decided not to put the high capacity magazines for thos guns back into production.

 

[TTSH]

There are no markings on post ban 5906/6906 magazines, at least I've never seen them.

The only ones that clearly should be avoided are the ones that say "For law enforcement or military use only". I've seen some 6906 magazines marked that way at gun shows.

That much is a given. Fortunately, none of my 3rd Gen magazines are so marked.

Something else to consider is that it wasn't that long between the end of the AWB and the end of 3rd Gen production. It's possible that Smith just decided not to put the high capacity magazines for those guns back into production.

I wish it were that simple. For better or worse, sales of NOS 3rd Gen "Hi-Cap" magazines continue to this day. It would be awful hard for me to believe that all these magazines were manufactured before the 1994 ban.

 

[BAM-BAM]

To make it stranger..... I've got PC guns with 6906 size and 5606 frames..... all are 1994 or later (but pre-2000) and all were sold with at least one PC marked 12 or 15 round magazine......................

Cross reference SCS&W page 370;

Model 5906 IDPA....1997 and shipped with " one 10-shot magazine and one 15-shot magazine,..."

Model 6906 Stocking Dealer Compact...1994..one 12 and one 15 rd mag.

model 6906 Compact....... 1995 12-round magazine

 

[BAM-BAM]

+++ Warning: Moonbat Discussion Ahead +++​

And I am too old and soft to spend the rest of my sorry life in a Massachusetts state prison over the date a small metal box with a spring was manufactured.



Thanks!

Not really a lot to worry over........ is there!

 

[TTSH]

To make it stranger..... I've got PC guns with 6906 size and 5606 frames..... all are 1994 or later (but pre-2000) and all were sold with at least one PC marked 12 or 15 round magazine......................

Cross reference SCS&W page 370;

Model 5906 IDPA....1997 and shipped with " one 10-shot magazine and one 15-shot magazine,..."

Model 6906 Stocking Dealer Compact...1994..one 12 and one 15 rd mag.

model 6906 Compact....... 1995 12-round magazine

I think we all know you belong in jail anyway! This just proves it!

Not really a lot to worry over........ is there!

Oh, you are bad!!! Evil and age discriminatory too!!!

 

[solomon]

I seem to recall some threads on this site, but the consensus then too was that 15rd 5906 magazines pre-1994 and post-2004 are indistinguishable. I have a couple of 15rd orange follower mags I bought pre-1994 (might actually have been early 1994) and a handful I bought post-2004 and I can find no differences between them.

 

[TTSH]

I seem to recall some threads on this site, but the consensus then too was that 15rd 5906 magazines pre-1994 and post-2004 are indistinguishable. I have a couple of 15rd orange follower mags I bought pre-1994 (might actually have been early 1994) and a handful I bought post-2004 and I can find no differences between them.

S&W, being based in a nutty, lunatic place like Massachusetts should have recognized a need to differentiate pre-ban from post-ban "Hi-Cap" magazines. It's not like they aren't aware of the states that still have the old Federal AWB still in effect.

I guess some would say they did us a big favor and some would say they put us in jeopardy by making the pre-ban and post-ban magazines look the same.

Not sure where I go with this. The legal risk may actually be quite small in practical terms... but the penalties are so extraordinary that one must pay attention. One little black metal box & spring made in the wrong year and your whole life could be ruined.

 

[solomon]

Not sure where I go with this. The legal risk may actually be quite small in practical terms... but the penalties are so extraordinary that one must pay attention. One little black metal box & spring made in the wrong year and your whole life could be ruined.

Personally I think if the magazine is purchased in good faith from a reputable seller attesting to its status as pre-ban that I would be Ok with it. Consider yourself somewhat lucky as here in Kolorado there is only grandfathering for magazines you actually OWNED before the cutoff (albeit much more recent).

 

[TTSH]

Personally I think if the magazine is purchased in good faith from a reputable seller attesting to its status as pre-ban that I would be Ok with it. Consider yourself somewhat lucky as here in Kolorado there is only grandfathering for magazines you actually OWNED before the cutoff (albeit much more recent).

Oh, I'll take Colorado's new situation over ours in MA any day. While some would say that our law is only rarely enforced and problematic beyond the selling of magazines in or into our state... your situation on the ground in Colorado sounds like an all-out law enforcement revolt over the silly new law.

And besides, 15 rounds is a whole lot more sane than 10 in today's world.

 

[solomon]

Oh, I'll take Colorado's new situation over ours in MA any day. While some would say that our law is only rarely enforced and problematic beyond the selling of magazines in or into our state... your situation on the ground in Colorado sounds like an all-out law enforcement revolt over the silly new law.

And besides, 15 rounds is a whole lot more sane than 10 in today's world.

I can't completely argue with you, and I benefit from owning (and this is a technical term) a "sh!t ton" of post 2004 but pre July 2013 magazines since we knew the ban was coming. (I also transferred via notarized bill of sale to each of my kids a similar amount and variety of magazines so they'd have proof of pre-ban-ness.)

Yeah, 15 is better than 10, but 30 would have been better than 15, and so on See if SIG ever makes a 15rd MPX magazine or CZ a 15rd scorpion magazine for instance...

The LE "revolt" is subject to the inevitable turnover in administrations with various sheriffs and doesn't change the fundamental fact that a magazine purchased post-black-Kolorado-day is illegal even if not enforced.

The grass may be greener on my side of that fence, but there's plenty of cow manure on both sides

 

[TTSH]

The grass may be greener on my side of that fence, but there's plenty of cow manure on both sides

Can't dispute that. Just different approaches to gunowner harassment for different times. Our MA law couldn't possibly work in Colorado now so many years after the Federal AWB expired... so they did what they did. Kind of the same in Connecticut. But MA never gave up the Federal ban. They just extended it... and hence the shape of our MA "Hi-Cap" magazine law.

 

[84Carrera]

I purchased my first 3rd Gen in like 92', a brand new 4006. The mags had a yellow follower & carry 11. I have 3 of them. I live in Ct., (as bad if not worse than Mass). Since Newtown & the high capacity ban I purchased factory 10 round mags. These have a blue follower. And as someone already said you can count the sight holes. I still can & do have the 11 rounders. They had to be registered but legal to own. You just can't carry them.

 

[TTSH]

I purchased my first 3rd Gen in like 92', a brand new 4006. The mags had a yellow follower & carry 11. I have 3 of them. I live in Ct., (as bad if not worse than Mass). Since Newtown & the high capacity ban I purchased factory 10 round mags. These have a blue follower. And as someone already said you can count the sight holes.

The full-size 11-round 40's are at least one example where you can sort of tell the difference. Older ones has yellow followers whereas newer ones (including 10-rounders) have blue followers. But exactly when the switch was made is not clear to me.

And in MA, it is supposedly okay to service your pre-ban magazines with new springs & followers and even new bases. A new blue follower in a pre-ban body is supposed to still be perfectly legal. But would a cop know? I don't think so.

I still can & do have the 11 rounders. They had to be registered but legal to own. You just can't carry them.

You can't carry your registered and still legally owned 11-round magazines??? You're joking... right?

 

[kbm6893]

I think you're overthinking this. All mags manufactured during the ban that were over 10 rounds are marked as ban mags. Unless you own a gun that didn't exist before the ban so no mags would have been available, a mag without the LE markings is fine. Since you can change the followers and base plates legally, there is no way to tell.

If you get arrested by some cop who doesn't believe you, you beat the charge and win a nice lawsuit for it. There is no probable cause to arrest a person because you think the magazine in his 5906, that has no markings to indicate it is post ban, is actually a post ban mag.

 

[GaryS]

Well said. To the best of my knowledge, and I'm not a lawyer, but do pay attention to this stuff in MA, there are two circumstances under which someone might be arrested in MA.

1) The person holds a "Class B, low capacity" license which only allows them to possess guns with magazines of 10 rounds or less.

2) It's an add on charge when someone without a license is arrested for something else.

I've never heard of any officers being trained to know the difference between pre ban, ban, post ban, magazines.

As you said, if it's not marked, they are very unlikely to know or care, provided you have the correct license.

That's for handguns, AR15 magazines might get a closer look if it came to that.

I think you're overthinking this. All mags manufactured during the ban that were over 10 rounds are marked as ban mags. Unless you own a gun that didn't exist before the ban so no mags would have been available, a mag without the LE markings is fine. Since you can change the followers and base plates legally, there is no way to tell.

If you get arrested by some cop who doesn't believe you, you beat the charge and win a nice lawsuit for it. There is no probable cause to arrest a person because you think the magazine in his 5906, that has no markings to indicate it is post ban, is actually a post ban mag.

 

[TTSH]

I think you're overthinking this. All mags manufactured during the ban that were over 10 rounds are marked as ban mags. Unless you own a gun that didn't exist before the ban so no mags would have been available, a mag without the LE markings is fine. Since you can change the followers and base plates legally, there is no way to tell.

If you get arrested by some cop who doesn't believe you, you beat the charge and win a nice lawsuit for it. There is no probable cause to arrest a person because you think the magazine in his 5906, that has no markings to indicate it is post ban, is actually a post ban mag.

Thanks for the encouraging reply but I'm not as sure as you are that things would turn out so well for me. I'm just not that lucky.

You are 100% correct on your two main points:

1) Possess any "Hi-Cap" magazines marked "LEO or export only" in this moonbat state are you are an instant AWB felon. Go straight to jail (do not pass Go), lose your 2A rights permanently (i.e., Prohibited Person) and have your life generally ruined.

2) Possess "Hi-Cap" magazines for a post-1994 gun (not manufactured in any form or variant before 1994 with same magazines) in this moonbat state and, again, you are an instant AWB felon. Jail, 2A rights lost for life, life left in ruins.

That much is clear. But we are talking about 3rd Gens here and I own many double-stack 9mm and 40's... and "Hi-Cap" magazines for same. More importantly, I feel I need a few more of one type and can probably trade or sell off a few of another type. I just want to be 100% sure that what I buy, sell or trade in this crazy moonbat state are all legal. And that, unfortunately, is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Fact is that I've been burnt in the past. We pay a ton of extra money in order to buy our "pre-bans"... so getting burned is doubly expensive and frustrating for us if/when it happens.

Be thankful that you are LEO (or retired LEO) and are exempt from these silly kinds of laws. If you weren't, you might want to do a little "over-thinking" about it yourself.

 

[TTSH]

As you said, if it's not marked, they are very unlikely to know or care, provided you have the correct license.

This I'll respectfully take exception to. Remember that I'm not nearly as lucky as you are! Especially when snapping up rare/valuable 3rd Gens or dealing with the men in blue!

And if I recall the law correctly, you may even be exempt... yes?

 

[kbm6893]

Thanks for the encouraging reply but I'm not as sure as you are that things would turn out so well for me. I'm just not that lucky.

You are 100% correct on your two main points:

1) Possess any "Hi-Cap" magazines marked "LEO or export only" in this moonbat state are you are an instant AWB felon. Go straight to jail (do not pass Go), lose your 2A rights permanently (i.e., Prohibited Person) and have your life generally ruined.

2) Possess "Hi-Cap" magazines for a post-1994 gun (not manufactured in any form or variant before 1994 with same magazines) in this moonbat state and, again, you are an instant AWB felon. Jail, 2A rights lost for life, life left in ruins.

That much is clear. But we are talking about 3rd Gens here and I own many double-stack 9mm and 40's... and "Hi-Cap" magazines for same. More importantly, I feel I need a few more of one type and can probably trade or sell off a few of another type. I just want to be 100% sure that what I buy, sell or trade in this crazy moonbat state are all legal. And that, unfortunately, is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Fact is that I've been burnt in the past. We pay a ton of extra money in order to buy our "pre-bans"... so getting burned is doubly expensive and frustrating for us if/when it happens.

Be thankful that you are LEO (or retired LEO) and are exempt from these silly kinds of laws. If you weren't, you might want to do a little "over-thinking" about it yourself.

Do what you think is best, but it sounds to me like somebody could take advantage of you and sell you pre-ban mags when they aren't. At a super inflated price, of course.