italiansport
Member
I have studied the old west period for over 50 years and I believe that this extensive post by Iggy is as close as we'll ever get to the bottom line on this subject.
Jim
The gun that won the West....
- Thread starter Xfuzz
- Start date
Jim
Hellraiser
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 491
- Reaction score
- 1,182
Makes a lot of sense... except that 99% of dirt-pushin' pioneers couldn't afford the more expensive bread-winnin' firearms. Most of 'em used shotguns... they were not huntin' buff far off... or deer... but were shootin' birds... foxes at the hen-house... scarin' potential would-be's at the cabin doors. And I have studied the west for 50 years, as well.
As gentlemen would... let's me and you agree to disagree on this. Have a drink on it, friend.
I distrust Ken Burns on anything having to do with firearms. In his massive series of TV programs on the Lewis & Clark Expedition, he rarely if ever menioned any firearms. Apparently those elk the expedition survived on for two years took off their hides and jumped willingly into the cooking pot.
An answer finally to an earlier question, who won the west.
HELLRAISER vote is for the settlers. Anyone else care to speculate? Get to Colorado and the first round is on me.
THE PILGRIM
Member
Another Shotgun vote.
Everybody had one, lots of folks used them.
Doc Holliday used one at the OK Corral!
Everybody had one, lots of folks used them.
Doc Holliday used one at the OK Corral!
Last edited:
texmex
Member
It was the revolver that won the west before repeating rifles showed up
In the hands of Jack Hays and his Rangers, the Colt revolver represented a sudden and decisive turn of events in confrontations with the Indian. Prior to acquiring the revolvers, the Rangers had to dismount in order to reload their muzzle-loading rifles, while the Indians, with their bows and arrows, could remain mounted and mobile. Also, it was a common plan of attack for the Indians to draw fire and, while their opponent was reloading, to charge the virtually defenseless advesary.
In the fall of 1841 the twenty three year old Hays camped with his party of twenty Ranger surveyors on Crabapple Creek, not far from Enchanted Rock. Early the next morning a fellow Ranger, Ben McCullouch, overheard Hays talking to his guns—two of Colt’s five-shooters. While giving them a good cleaning, Hays murmured; "I may not need you, but if I do I will need you mighty bad." A short time later Hays rode out alone to inspect the legendary Enchanted Rock. Hays, thoroughly familiar with the Indian and their beliefs, he must have known that if there were any Comanche in the area, they would not tolerate his intrusion on sacred land; furthermore, their reaction to a surveying party would be especially fierce. Needless to say, when the Comanche saw the notorious Jack Hays on their holy mountain with surveying equipment, they were as angry as teased wasps. When the Indians attacked, Hays headed for the summit, where he held out until his companions arrived to finish the fight.
The Comanche hadn’t counted on Hays’ Colts. With two five-shooters and a rifle he was better armed than ten men with muzzle-loading rifles. Especially when you take into account the element of surprise. The Comanche’s old methods of attacking a stranded white where suddenly useless.
According to most accounts, the Comanche lost between ten and twenty warriors in the confrontation. Out gunned and bewildered by the sudden change of events, the Comanche quit the field and sought escape in the labyrinth of Enchanted Rock Cave.
The cap and ball revolver, plus a couple of pre-loaded cylinders finally trumped the indians superior firepower with the bow (15-30 arrows per minute). Cartridge revolvers and then cartridge rifles and shotguns outclassed the bow and arrow in firepower, range and power. Several rangers acquired 44 WCF rifles and revolvers. They soon discovered that bottlenecked cartridges and revolvers did not play well together. They could backout under pressure and tie up the cylinder. They soon went back to 45 Colt revolvers and 44 or 38 WCF rifles for reliability. 45 Colt had too small a rim to reliably extract and eject from a lever action rifle. When the Army adopted the 1909 Colt 45, they found out the small rim was not ideal for silmultaneous ejection. They then came up with a 1909 45 cartridge that had a bigger rim. It was too big for a SAA unless you only loaded every other chamber.
In the hands of Jack Hays and his Rangers, the Colt revolver represented a sudden and decisive turn of events in confrontations with the Indian. Prior to acquiring the revolvers, the Rangers had to dismount in order to reload their muzzle-loading rifles, while the Indians, with their bows and arrows, could remain mounted and mobile. Also, it was a common plan of attack for the Indians to draw fire and, while their opponent was reloading, to charge the virtually defenseless advesary.
In the fall of 1841 the twenty three year old Hays camped with his party of twenty Ranger surveyors on Crabapple Creek, not far from Enchanted Rock. Early the next morning a fellow Ranger, Ben McCullouch, overheard Hays talking to his guns—two of Colt’s five-shooters. While giving them a good cleaning, Hays murmured; "I may not need you, but if I do I will need you mighty bad." A short time later Hays rode out alone to inspect the legendary Enchanted Rock. Hays, thoroughly familiar with the Indian and their beliefs, he must have known that if there were any Comanche in the area, they would not tolerate his intrusion on sacred land; furthermore, their reaction to a surveying party would be especially fierce. Needless to say, when the Comanche saw the notorious Jack Hays on their holy mountain with surveying equipment, they were as angry as teased wasps. When the Indians attacked, Hays headed for the summit, where he held out until his companions arrived to finish the fight.
The Comanche hadn’t counted on Hays’ Colts. With two five-shooters and a rifle he was better armed than ten men with muzzle-loading rifles. Especially when you take into account the element of surprise. The Comanche’s old methods of attacking a stranded white where suddenly useless.
According to most accounts, the Comanche lost between ten and twenty warriors in the confrontation. Out gunned and bewildered by the sudden change of events, the Comanche quit the field and sought escape in the labyrinth of Enchanted Rock Cave.
The cap and ball revolver, plus a couple of pre-loaded cylinders finally trumped the indians superior firepower with the bow (15-30 arrows per minute). Cartridge revolvers and then cartridge rifles and shotguns outclassed the bow and arrow in firepower, range and power. Several rangers acquired 44 WCF rifles and revolvers. They soon discovered that bottlenecked cartridges and revolvers did not play well together. They could backout under pressure and tie up the cylinder. They soon went back to 45 Colt revolvers and 44 or 38 WCF rifles for reliability. 45 Colt had too small a rim to reliably extract and eject from a lever action rifle. When the Army adopted the 1909 Colt 45, they found out the small rim was not ideal for silmultaneous ejection. They then came up with a 1909 45 cartridge that had a bigger rim. It was too big for a SAA unless you only loaded every other chamber.
StrawHat
Member
Pretty sure the original Burgess was a 44-40. The new made rifles are chambered in a variety cartridges.
Kevin
Thank you for the history lesson. Few know of this little dust up. It is an example of a handgun, 2 in this case, that ruled the day. However it is not known with which gun that the most shooting was done with. As you said after the first shot, the Indians attacked and was driven off, as much by the handguns firepower, but also by the bewilderment of where all the shots were coming from, giving him time to reload. This is one incident though and if Jack had lost would it have made a difference in history? But old Jack would surely have gone under without his Colt's. An example to the contrary would be the Box Wagon fight that was conducted with 1868 Springfield's and 2 Henry's, no handguns mentioned. You brought up an interesting tidbit that has been in Hollywood movies for a few decades but I have never heard of in real life. Did revolver shooters carry extra cylinders? I have studied old west guns and gear and have never seen a pouch on a belt or saddle made to accommodate a cylinder. Was this just Hollywood? it has been a decade or 2 since I read about Jack, but do not recall any mention of extra cylinders. Can anyone direct me to a mention of such a practice in text? I am not saying it did not happen, just never heard of it.
From TEXMEX post I am inclined to believe his vote for the winners of the west to be lawmen. One vote for settlers and one for lawmen. Who else cares to vote?
jtcarm
Member
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2011
- Messages
- 4,422
- Reaction score
- 4,315
Springfield Trapdoor
Sharps
Remington Rolling Block
Not for the people they killed, but the buffalo, which did in the plains Indians.
The Texas legislature considered outlawing commercial buffalo hunting, until General Phillip Sheridan testified that buffalo hunters were far more effective subjugating the Indians than the U.S. Army and should be encouraged to wipe out the buffalo.
Sheridan was actually the first to practice Sherman's "scorched earth" in the Civil War. A brilliant and capable officer to be sure, but IMO, a despicable little ****.
Sharps
Remington Rolling Block
Not for the people they killed, but the buffalo, which did in the plains Indians.
The Texas legislature considered outlawing commercial buffalo hunting, until General Phillip Sheridan testified that buffalo hunters were far more effective subjugating the Indians than the U.S. Army and should be encouraged to wipe out the buffalo.
Sheridan was actually the first to practice Sherman's "scorched earth" in the Civil War. A brilliant and capable officer to be sure, but IMO, a despicable little ****.
I have studied the old west period for over 50 years and I believe that this extensive post by Iggy is as close as we'll ever get to the bottom line on this subject.
Jim
That wasn't me, I was just agreeing with 30-30remchester.
Jim
That wasn't me, I was just agreeing with 30-30remchester.
Last edited:
The Gun That Won the West:
1955 Movie starring Dennis Morgan and Richard Denning.
a nickeled plated Remington Rolling Block Rifle is what won the west according to Hollywood.
1955 Movie starring Dennis Morgan and Richard Denning.
a nickeled plated Remington Rolling Block Rifle is what won the west according to Hollywood.
Hellraiser
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 491
- Reaction score
- 1,182
I think you are correct...
The point being is that Winchester did not want Colt to build rifles... and Colt did not want Winchester to build handguns.
I was always under the impression that it wasn't a gun at all that "won the west."
I always thought it was the steel plow, barbed wire, and the railroad. I guess you can throw the telegraph wire in there too.
But I really think it was the women. Men came and went where they wanted. They stayed as long as they wanted then moved on if they wanted. But when women came, they wanted a house and a home. Not a soddy or a shack, but a real house. When houses came, towns weren't going to be far behind. When towns arrived, they wanted churches, stores, schools, libraries, hospitals, and theaters. And they wanted law and order. They wanted a safe place to raise their children.
So I think really it was women who "won the west."
I always thought it was the steel plow, barbed wire, and the railroad. I guess you can throw the telegraph wire in there too.
But I really think it was the women. Men came and went where they wanted. They stayed as long as they wanted then moved on if they wanted. But when women came, they wanted a house and a home. Not a soddy or a shack, but a real house. When houses came, towns weren't going to be far behind. When towns arrived, they wanted churches, stores, schools, libraries, hospitals, and theaters. And they wanted law and order. They wanted a safe place to raise their children.
So I think really it was women who "won the west."
texmex
Member
Thank you TEXMEX, just what I was asking about. This is the first account I have read about exchanging cylinders. Fourteen rangers fired 150 rounds for an average of @11 rounds each. Most likely one shot apiece with the rifle and the rest with handguns. Casualty rates seem to always be over stated. So if 25 were hit, that is one hit per 6 rounds. Dang good shooting from horseback. While I still firmly believe the muzzle loading rifle whose reign was from 1803 till @ 1870 would make it the winner hands down, a compelling case came be made for the revolver lending a helping hand in many conflicts. The Colt model P aka peacemaker was a too late a participant in a lot of the wests history. Only arriving in any real numbers in 1975 or 76. Fourteen or fifteen years was all that was left of the wild west. I have never heard of the author of this article and give him the benefit of doubt on his research. Thanks again and lets see if other members can contribute some more stories.
Faulkner
Member
1975 or 1976 ?
You caught that eagle eye.
gregintenn
Member
Apparently, Lewis and Clark kept the larder full with a great big air rifle.
NRA.ORG | Lewis & Clark Girandoni Air Rifle
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Questions concerning loading the Lehigh Defense Extreme Defense bullet- Latest: venomballistics
-
-
-
-
-