expanding/seating problem

[Collo Rosso]

About 2 years ago started loading 45acp and ordered a Lyman 3 die set. Had never used Lyman before, all my other dies are RCBS. First cartridges I loaded had problems and came to find out the set came with a roll crimp die. Ordered a taper crimp and solved that problem.
Problem now is when I flair the case mouth I can only flair it so big before the case won't go into the seating die. At this point the .451 plated bullets I was using would seat fine but never did fit the flair very well. Probably had great case tension! If a bullet wasn't perfectly inline with the case, seating would shave the plating off or the bullet bit in and crush the case. I started using coated bullets recently sized to .452 and now the case mouth flair just isn't enough. I'm shaving smiles and whole rings of lead and powder coat off bullets. If the bullet isn't straight with the case, the case mouth cuts into the bullet crushing the case.
I played with 9mm and 44 spl/mag and my RCBS dies will expand the case mouth like a trumpet, the bullet about fall into the case and still go into the seat/crimp die.
I've been calling Lyman for a week now but get put on hold forever. I've left 2 voice mails but have yet to be called back.
I'd like to hear what you guys think.

 

[arjay]

The Lee dies are a pain that way.The part that flares the mouth floats and bumps up against the top piece of the die.Find a washer that will fit between the two and you can get more bell.

 

[ageingstudent]

The Lee dies are a pain that way.The part that flares the mouth floats and bumps up against the top piece of the die.Find a washer that will fit between the two and you can get more bell.

Well that flair bushing has to float to run the powder measure doesn't it? Would a washer interfere with the powder measure? I haven't had any issue getting my cases to flair properly with my Lee dies.

collo, I'm curious why your 45acp set came with a roll crimp. Was it a 45 colt crimp packaged in the wrong set?

 

[MyDads38]

All of my reloading dies are Lee and I've never had an issue with expanding/seating; even using 3 die sets. Lyman must have some pretty close tolerances, or you just got one that was a little too close on tolerance.

 

[Collo Rosso]

collo, I'm curious why your 45acp set came with a roll crimp. Was it a 45 colt crimp packaged in the wrong set?

I called Lyman back then and was told that set came with a roll crimp die. When I asked "for 45acp?" I never got an answer. She didn't know why. I had a new 1911 waiting and just ordered a taper crimp die and get it over with.

 

[ageingstudent]

I called Lyman back then and was told that set came with a roll crimp die. When I asked "for 45acp?" I never got an answer. She didn't know why. I had a new 1911 waiting and just ordered a taper crimp die and get it over with.

Well that's rather frustrating:/.

 

[reddog81]

OP has a Lyman die and everyone is talking about Lee dies...
I have a Lyman expander for 45 ACP and it works fine. Can you adjust the the expander further down into the die. I can expand my cases large enough to get .453 to .454 cast bullets into it without problems.
You might want to post a picture of the die to get further help. I imagine there are numerous types of dies out there.

 

[AZ_M&P]

The Lee dies are a pain that way.The part that flares the mouth floats and bumps up against the top piece of the die.Find a washer that will fit between the two and you can get more bell.

Interesting you're having this problem. I use nothing but Lee dies for 5 different calibers and have never experienced this.

 

[Collo Rosso]

I have a Lyman expander for 45 ACP and it works fine. Can you adjust the the expander further down into the die. I can expand my cases large enough to get .453 to .454 cast bullets into it without problems.

Yes, I can open up the case mouth but now it won't go in the seating die... I think I just answered my own question. The seating die is the original roll crimp die. Could the roll crimp die have a narrower mouth than a taper crimp die? I had a 3 die set but when I ordered a taper crimp die it was crimp die only. No threads for a seating plug. I'll have a look when I get home.

What is it with Lee die owners?

 

[reddog81]

I can't imagine why the mouth would be larger for for one seating die versus the other but it is possible.
I have noticed that it is very easy to over expand a case mouth. The difference between under-expanded, correctly expanded, and over-expanded falls within a very narrow range when adjusting dies.

 

[shovelwrench]

You are only expanding enough that the bullet will start??

That's really all you want, past that, you lose tension and shorten brass life. Starting the bullet straight is part of the job.

There should also be a slight taper to the start of the seating die to make the case enter easier/centered.....

But then, I use LEE dies LOL

 

[Jboutfishn]

A few years back All I could find was a Lyman 3 die set for the 40 S&W. That set came with a roll crimp seating die. I carefully used that set to load up some rounds for my 40C. It did work without feeding issues but the Lyman set now is a paper weight.

Reading the instruction sheet carefully it states that if a tapper crimp is needed it must be ordered separately.

 

[jag22]

I think I would go back to the instructions and start all over. Sounds like you've adjusted so much you're focused on one problem and don't realize you've caused another. I personally don't care for the powder thru the expander dies. Bought a Redding set with a standard type expander die.

 

[ageingstudent]

A few years back All I could find was a Lyman 3 die set for the 40 S&W. That set came with a roll crimp seating die. I carefully used that set to load up some rounds for my 40C. It did work without feeding issues but the Lyman set now is a paper weight.

Reading the instruction sheet carefully it states that if a tapper crimp is needed it must be ordered separately.

That's a trip. I just looked at Lyman's online PDF user instructions and it says all autoloader dies come with a roll crimp. Wow that's making my head hurt. Anyone know what their rationale is behind that?

 

[ontargetagain]

I have loaded lead, coated, jacketed and plated 45's with my Lyman 4 die set with no issues when properly set. There is a fine line between enough flare to set the bullet vs too big a flare as to not want to enter the die to taper crimp.
Lyman directions for set up on 'M' Neck Expander Die says the first step expands the neck to slightly under bullet diameter, the second step expands the first 1/16" of the neck to slightly over bullet diameter. This has worked perfect for me and I can set the bullet snugly and squarely in place before I seat the it.
Directions state to raise shell holder in press to highest point, then screw down the die to make contact and secure. Make sure you have the expander plug screw backed out far enough then raise up a case and then begin to screw the plug down until you feel it make contact. I will mark the top of the screw with a hash mark indicator, lower the shell then turn in the expander plug 1/2 turn at a time until you begin to develop your bell flare, then do 1/4 turns until you can just snugly seat and start your bullet. They should square up nicely in the this flare then seat snugly with your taper die next.
Just to be sure it is a 45acp expander plug isn't it, the bottom of the plug should say 45AP they are marked on the bottom. It the bullet hand sets in correctly then it should not shave the case unless you have an issue with your bullet seating die or choice of correct profile seating die for the bullet nose.
You really want as little as possible flare, just enough to clear the base of the bullet, the bullet should not drop in! It should snugly fit into the first 1/16in of the case. My plated and coated bullets when hand started are a nice friction fit, actually like a suction fit.

Case on left not expanded (yes damaged base on this one) case with bullet is expanded with hand set bullet, notice very little difference in the amount of flare needed to set bullet.

Sorry if any of this sounds too basic, just hoping there is a simple step that has you messed up.
Anytime I have crushed a case it is because I was seating and crimping in one step and had my crimp set to early before bullet was fully seated.

Karl

 

[Jboutfishn]

That's a trip. I just looked at Lyman's online PDF user instructions and it says all autoloader dies come with a roll crimp. Wow that's making my head hurt. Anyone know what their rationale is behind that?

Is there any S&W 40 that call for a roll crimp?

 

[ageingstudent]

Is there any S&W 40 that call for a roll crimp?

Well I can't ever remember seeing a 40 S&W with a rimmed case. Perhaps they are anticipating a new invention.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Problem now is when I flair the case mouth I can only flair it so big before the case won't go into the seating die.

I don't have any Lyman die sets but I do have their expander "M" die for several cartridges. The only time(s) I've had the problem you mention is when the Lyman die's expander plug tip started to come unscrewed. It drove me crazy until I found the problem.

Unscrew the expander die's stem from the die body & check the tip to see if it's loose. If it is degrease the tip's threads, then put a drop of threadlock on it & reinstall it. I haven't had the problem reoccur.

With the tip secured the adjustment isn't as touchy. Also, you might be interested in this o-ring mod I did to my Lyman expander dies. It makes adjusting them easier. http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/450733-lyman-expander-m-die-o-ring-mod.html

.

 

[Collo Rosso]

I played with sized cases and coated bullets last night for a couple hours. I removed, took apart, made sure no loose parts and cleaned the expanding die and its plug. reinstalled it to the directions and started adjusting the expanding plug.
By the time I've adjusted the expanding plug (turning it 1/16 turn at a time!) to the point were a bullet just seats in the flare like in this picture, the case will not go up into the seating plug. It will go up into the crimping die, but this does me no good.
I did the same with my 9mm die set and I can expand the case mouth to where a 124gr. plated bullet drops into the flare 1/3 its length and it will still go up into the seating/crimp die.
I called Lyman this mourning for the third time this week and once again was directed to someone's voice mail. For the third time this week and twice last week it's been 6 hours at least and no return call.
I'm posting this, then ordering a RCBS carbide 3 die set.
Thanks for the help. I got a better response from perfect strangers on a gun forum than from a company I paid for one of their products.

 

[ageingstudent]

Did you ever measure the diameter of the seating die? It would be interesting to see if your seating die is undersized.