Sad story - M&P Model of 1905

[Muss Muggins]

1: Turn illegal firearm in to local law enforcement.

2: Initiate small claims action for return of payment.

 

[Absalom]

. . . , is there no way to find out with the serial number, model, make, etc.?

If that could happen, and it is not on the stolen list, the serial number could be re-stamped.....

But keep in mind that this is only one possibility. The gun could very well have been legally purchased at some point, maybe back when person-to-person private sales at gun shows were legal pretty much everywhere, and then modified by the new owner prior to using it for nefarious purposes. No theft report, NCIC check would be negative. I suspect BATFE would need to be satisfied by solid evidence excluding that before approving "refreshing" the missing stampings.

 

[glowe]

There are questionable cases where a lot of people get way too worried about the possible legal consequences. Partially obscured butt serials due to lanyard installation, for example, are not worth worrying about in my opinion.

But this is NOT a questionable case. Federal law has been violated . . .

Let's belabor this a little longer. I will state that how the serial number is obliterated is not the issue, but rather the fact that it is no longer where it is required by law. I see no difference in the letter of the law as it would apply the same to someone drilling a hole through the serial number, obviously knowing they are destroying the serial number in the process. That person committed a "crime" and , all people who subsequently purchased and transferred the gun would also be at risk of prosecution.

It is all hypothetical, since most of us don't have a dog in the fight here, but it is interesting exploring options short of going to the government for "help". Kind of an oxymoron in that statement.

No one has commented on if there is any way to check a serial number of a firearm to determine if it is on any type of law enforcement list??

 

[Muss Muggins]

No one has commented on if there is any way to check a serial number of a firearm to determine if it is on any type of law enforcement list??

I'll run with this one. You can call ATFE or your local law enforcement agency and say "I have a gun, and I would like to determine if it has been reported stolen." They may or may not run the number for you while you wait over the phone. They may or may not give you the results over the phone. I know of several such inquiries. Regularly, after being informed of problematic results of the inquiry, the caller hangs up.

 

[Absalom]

I'll run with this one. You can call ATFE or your local law enforcement agency and say "I have a gun, and I would like to determine if it has been reported stolen." They may or may not run the number for you while you wait over the phone. They may or may not give you the results over the phone. I know of several such inquiries. Regularly, after being informed of problematic results of the inquiry, the caller hangs up.

Unless you carry throwaway prepaid phones with you for such calls, I have my doubts about the efficacy of that given the current state of communications technology. Besides, depending on how your state has it set up, citizens can get guns checked through NCIC (in Oregon the State Police provides this service), but not without identifying themselves. I'd be curious to find out if anyone official in his right mind would give out any information without knowing who they're talking to. The databases are maintained by the FBI by the way. Unless it concerns a licensed dealer and his inventory, BATFE has nothing to do with individual stolen guns.

No one has commented on if there is any way to check a serial number of a firearm to determine if it is on any type of law enforcement list??

So to answer Gary's question, you need to check your state's provisions for that. Just FYI, I've snipped Oregon's website below.

 

[Hondo44]

My only question: if it came to you, why are you accepting it? Refuse to accept it, call UPS or whoever delivered it for a pick up to go back to the FFL it came from, period. You already have the concurrence of the seller, just collect your refund and let him deal with it.

It seems it's being made a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Nothing goes in your books for a refused delivery!

 

[Muss Muggins]

Unless you carry throwaway prepaid phones with you for such calls, I have my doubts about the efficacy of that given the current state of communications technology. Besides, depending on how your state has it set up, citizens can get guns checked through NCIC (in Oregon the State Police provides this service), but not without identifying themselves. I'd be curious to find out if anyone official in his right mind would give out any information without knowing who they're talking to. The databases are maintained by the FBI by the way. Unless it concerns a licensed dealer and his inventory, BATFE has nothing to do with individual stolen guns.



So to answer Gary's question, you need to check your state's provisions for that. Just FYI, I've snipped Oregon's website below.

I'm just telling you how it works in the real world. It happens daily. I called an ATFE friend of mine the other day to ask a question about a potentially non-registered NFA item. He says they get calls all the time, and they're perfectly willing to tell the caller if the NFA item has ever been registered. When callers get bad news, they hang up. Very easy to block your number in Caller ID. Agencies field questions like these all the time, and you're wrong about BATFE and individual stolen guns. They'll take the call and answer the question. Like you said, Oregon State Police will answer the question. So will many other agencies. It's like advice on this forum. What you do with the bad news is up to you. Just don't get caught watching the paint dry . . .

 

[jmace57]

My only question: if it came to you, why are you accepting it? Refuse to accept it, call UPS or whoever delivered it for a pick up to go back to the FFL it came from, period. You already have the concurrence of the seller, just collect your refund and let him deal with it.

It seems it's being made a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Nothing goes in your books for a refused delivery!

I wonder if this is a possibility. It was supposed to be signed for by me...but as happens about 50% of the time, the box was set on my porch, the doorbell rung, and the FedEx guy was driving off in his truck before I got there.

 

[Absalom]

I wonder if this is a possibility. It was supposed to be signed for by me...but as happens about 50% of the time, the box was set on my porch, the doorbell rung, and the FedEx guy was driving off in his truck before I got there.

This does NOT happen unless your local FedEx driver is setting himself up to get fired or, much more likely, the person shipping to you tries to increase his profit by not adding the signature service required by FedEx (see attached website snip), which of course means they didn't tell FedEx it contained a handgun, another violation. There may be more unethical about that seller than just this gun.

 

[handejector]

This does NOT happen unless your local FedEx driver is setting himself up to get fired or, much more likely, the person shipping to you tries to increase his profit by not adding the signature service required by FedEx

Years ago, putting a relatively low amount of insurance on a package required a signature. I think anything over $250 required a signature.
They have raised the insurance limit requiring a signature over the years and added that clause about requiring the signature.
So, many shippers simply don't know the regs. That doesn't mean they are inherently crooked.

Many of their requirements have changed. We used to be able to ship handguns via ground.
Many distributors are still allowed to use ground because they have their own deal with UPS or FedEx.

 

[Absalom]

I grant you that there are too many regulations, but this one is so elementary that someone who ships guns as part of his FFL business would have to be exceptionally stupid not to know about it. But then, he did apparently not worry about shipping a gun with an obviously removed serial .....

 

[handejector]

My point was that he may not have read the regs in 10 years.
He may not know that the package did not require a signature.
Most people would not expose themselves to that much risk and worry to save $2 or $3.

I wouldn't.

I have a USPS account and print my Priority labels online, with insurance. I often ship multiple packages on any given day when running auctions.
Most are insured at $500 and above, so a signature was automatically required.
A few months back, the P.O. changed their signature requirement.
Above $200 had required a signature, but it was changed to above $500. ABOVE $500, so a package insured for 500 did not require a signature.
If they informed us of it in any way, I missed it. I read all messages from them, so I don't think they informed us.
The week it changed, I had shipped multiple packages 3 days in a row insured for 500.
I suddenly had NUMEROUS packages insured for $500 that tracking showed as "Left on porch", or "Left at mailbox", or "Left by front door".
Needless to say, it was a nerve wracking week!

 

[jmace57]

Follow up - I contacted the FFL about this. He went dead silent when I told him about his sending me a gun with a removed number. I said "do you have any suggestions". He said nothing - maybe he thought I was an ATF agent or reporter trying to trip him up. I said "all I want to do is see if there is a legal way for me to get this back to the seller". No comment.

I called the BATF. (This is not worth getting in trouble over, as far as I am concerned - call me a wimp if you like)

The agent I talked to has had me take pictures of the gun, and the defaced area...but seemed quite interested in the other locations that the serial numbers DID exist. He even mentioned something about getting it "restamped". I'm not going to hold my breath thinking it's all going to work out, but maybe...

I'll keep you all informed as to what ends up happening.

 

[Absalom]

The issue here of course is that it's not just money, but that with firearms, there is a good reason for the signature requirement.

I used to work through an FFL who was doing it on the side and had a day job. A gun I had bought on Gunbroker once sat on his porch for most of the day unattended, on a busy street, because the clown shipping it hadn't added signature required. Anyone could have walked off with the box. The seller's e-mail response was basically "Oops". My FFL guy happened to be a police officer in his day job and was absolutely furious; he made noises about contacting ATF and FedEx. I don't know whether he followed through with that, but a gun gone bye-bye under those circumstances obviously creates more worries than just the monetary loss.

So you may be right about the sender just not being up on the regs, but when shipping a gun, that's not really a good excuse.

 

[italiansport]

I have a question:
Why can't the new "owner" do the following.
Check to see if the gun is stolen and if not and since the serial number is known have it re stamped on the butt to coincide with the rest of the numbers.
What's the real harm or foul here?

 

[jmace57]

I would bet it would be hard to find a gunsmith willing to do that. What I am sort of HOPING for would be some letter from BATF that said it would be OK to re-stamp the numbers.

 

[steelslaver]

A set of 3/32" number stamps are about $20 on Ebay and a small hammer is available at the hardware store. If they say its OK

 

[Elkins45]

Follow up - I contacted the FFL about this. He went dead silent when I told him about his sending me a gun with a removed number. I said "do you have any suggestions". He said nothing - maybe he thought I was an ATF agent or reporter trying to trip him up. I said "all I want to do is see if there is a legal way for me to get this back to the seller". No comment.

I called the BATF. (This is not worth getting in trouble over, as far as I am concerned - call me a wimp if you like)

The agent I talked to has had me take pictures of the gun, and the defaced area...but seemed quite interested in the other locations that the serial numbers DID exist. He even mentioned something about getting it "restamped". I'm not going to hold my breath thinking it's all going to work out, but maybe...

I'll keep you all informed as to what ends up happening.

Whatever happens, I would make sure the ATF knows the name of your suddenly mute FFL. If the guy is willing to leave you on the hook it seems only fair to return the favor.

 

[Hondo44]

I would bet it would be hard to find a gunsmith willing to do that. What I am sort of HOPING for would be some letter from BATF that said it would be OK to re-stamp the numbers.

Both of the local smiths I've asked in the past, said; "Of course. How could it ever be proved if, when, or who stamped it." I would think it would be especially true for just one letter S. The reason is obvious with no foul play intended!

BATF (now BATFExplosives) can be a shooting craps. What they would require seems to depend on which agent happens to answer the phone. I understand there is an "official" process but it usually includes them issuing a s/n of their choice and lots'a paperwork.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The fact is we are now 20-25 years after the end of the Revolver Era ( specifically in LE , but also generally). This means there is an entire generation of LE and FFL's who simply don't know where the actual s/n is on a S&W revolver. This includes multiple FFL's and the head of the Property Div of a Large PD. To anyone under 40yo, and anyone not involved with gun biz before the mid '90s, if they can see any number anywhere on the gun, it them becomes the s/n to them.