.38 Special Red Dot Loads - Update

[S&W HE]

An old Hercules loading manual shows 4.0 grains of Red Dot under a 158 grain lead round nose projectile. It also shows 4.0 grains for jacketed projectiles.

I've been using this 4.0gr/158gr hard cast lead and plated bullet load with no over pressure indications in K frame revolvers for many years.

Todays Alliant recipes are 3.4 grains for a 158 grain .38 special and 3.8 grains for a .38 special +P load.

Are today's loads that lawyered up or have you seen pressure indications?

Update: As in the past both the lead and plated 4.0gr/158gr Alliant Red Dot loads proved accurate with no over-pressure indications when shot from two Model 66 S&Ws -1974 & 1984 vintage - K frames.

 

[NYlakesider]

An old Hercules loading manual shows 4.0 grains of Red Dot under a 158 grain lead round nose projectile. It also shows 4.0 grains for jacketed projectiles.

I've been using this 4.0gr/158gr hard cast lead and plated bullet load with no over pressure indications in K frame revolvers for many years.

Todays Alliant recipes are 3.4 grains for a 158 grain .38 special and 3.8 grains for a .38 special +P load.

Are today's loads that lawyered up or have you seen pressure indications?

Looking in my old Speer dated 1974 I see a few loads using red dot
3 in 148 lead wadcutter (.358 D)
1 in 158 lead semi wadcutter.(358D) They listed 3.5 to 3.9
And 1 in 110gr, 357 diameter loads

 

[fredj338]

There could be a minor change in powder configuration or just lot to lot variations at time of testing. If things look fine in your gun, all that matters, regardless of what book data says.

 

[shotgun693]

I contacted the factory about a .38 spl load, to be fired in a .357, using Red Dot and a 158 gr LSWC. They recommended 5.0 gr. I do not have a .38spl to try it in and might not if I did.

 

[Yorkie Man]

I use 2.5 grains of Red dot with a PD 148 HBWC and it is a very accurate load.

 

[bluetopper]

I have a Lyman manual from 1973 and it states 3.9gr of Red Dot for a 158gr lead bullet. Been shooting that load for years with wonderful results.
No need to neuter the 38 to today's standards!

 

[rwsmith]

Unless data is known to be faulty...

Unless published data is known to be faulty, I don't hesitate to use it. S&Ws in good shape are not like junkers that they have to allow for. If I have a problem I expect it would be from shooting too many hot loads (which I don't do except a cylinder for 'fun) or a goof in reloading, for which there is no help whether it's a strong gun or not.

I found a +P load for 125 gr jph .38 special in an old Sierra book. The MINIMUM load was .4 of a grain (I think it was Unique) above the recommended 6 grain maximum nowadays. I tried a starting load and WOW. I didn't care to work toward the maximum load of 7 grains. I didn't think that it was dangerous, but I thought I'd drop back to 6.2 grains for normal use.

 

[Big Cholla]

Before WW 231 came out I tried several shotgun powders trying to find a cleaner burning one to use instead of Unique. I did try Red Dot for very long finding that it didn't meter very true and very small variations made for wild changes in pressure. The WW 231 data for 45 acp and 38 Super came out and I found my go to powder for years of IPSC and IDPA competition. I then found for my today's range loads that I liked Universal Clays very much. UC is now called just "Clays". I regard Clays as my clean burning modern day Unique. .............

 

[slickracer]

Before WW 231 came out I tried several shotgun powders trying to find a cleaner burning one to use instead of Unique. I did try Red Dot for very long finding that it didn't meter very true and very small variations made for wild changes in pressure. The WW 231 data for 45 acp and 38 Super came out and I found my go to powder for years of IPSC and IDPA competition. I then found for my today's range loads that I liked Universal Clays very much. UC is now called just "Clays". I regard Clays as my clean burning modern day Unique. .............

Universal Clays is NOT the same powder as Clays!

 

[LAH]

I'm using 3.5 grains of Promo with a 158/160 SWC with no ill effects.

 

[SLT223]

Before WW 231 came out I tried several shotgun powders trying to find a cleaner burning one to use instead of Unique. I did try Red Dot for very long finding that it didn't meter very true and very small variations made for wild changes in pressure. The WW 231 data for 45 acp and 38 Super came out and I found my go to powder for years of IPSC and IDPA competition. I then found for my today's range loads that I liked Universal Clays very much. UC is now called just "Clays". I regard Clays as my clean burning modern day Unique. .............

Universal Clays and Clay are two very different products. The prior is of similar burn rate to Unique. That latter is extremely fast burning; on par with Bullseye.

I do second the use of Clays as an OUTSTANDING low velocity target load propellant. It is by far the cleanest powder I've worked with.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Those old manuals had loads that went into the +P areas........
while some of the newer data is only for standard 38 special loads.

The old manuals top loading in my M19 and 686 6" barrels would get at least 890 fps with 4.0gr of Red Dot.
In my M49 snub this load just gets past the 800 fps area with the 158gr lead FBI style bullet.

If you have a 6" 38 J frame, or more...........
you might want to try a 158 Lswc with a medium crimp, cci 500 primer and just 3.5 grs of Red Dot, at 755 fps.
It out shot my long time accuracy load of Bullseye last year with just 1/2" right of POA.

 

[Big Cholla]

Correction!

Universal Clays is NOT the same powder as Clays!

I stand corrected. This is why I don't care to talk reloading on the internet very much. I'm just repeating a blurb I read about six months ago about the change in name of "Universal Clays" by a person that I thought knew what they were talking about. I repeated without verifying the facts. I have never even seen a jug of "Clays" as my in-house supply of UC is large enough that I will never have to purchase it again. Mea Culpa ...........

 

[old&slow]

I stand corrected. This is why I don't care to talk reloading on the internet very much. I'm just repeating a blurb I read about six months ago about the change in name of "Universal Clays" by a person that I thought knew what they were talking about. I repeated without verifying the facts. I have never even seen a jug of "Clays" as my in-house supply of UC is large enough that I will never have to purchase it again. Mea Culpa ...........

It was one of those very confusing ,,, and IMO not very smart ,, things done by a Mfg.
Clays ,,, Universal Clays ,, International Clays. similar names ,, different powders..
.308 Winchester and a .308 Marlin is another one that IMO was confusing..

 

[FlyFish]

I believe it was just this sort of confusion that prompted Hodgdon (some might say "finally!") to drop the word "Clays" from International Clays and Universal Clays - on their website now they list Clays, International, and Universal. Smart move, I think.

 

[Big Cholla]

OK, with just a little Google Foo I find that my reference got the name change exactly backwards...... In 1962 Hodgdon came out with a new powder for shotgunners called; "Clays". They quickly followed up with " International Clays and then Universal Clays. All these 'clays' floating around on labels caused some confusion (well, duh). So, Hodgdon dropped the "Clays" part of the name on both International Clays and Universal Clays. The poster I read got it wrong about which portion of the name was dropped and I made the mistake of following blindly. That is a very dangerous thing to do when it comes to reloading. I'm now firmly resolved to never again post about reloading. It is potentially just too dangerous to make mistakes in this area of being a 'gunny'.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Hang in there Big guy...........

Keep posting but just leave Hodgdon powders out of it..........
Done deal.

 

[mtgianni]

This thread makes me wonder...

What "over pressure" signs do you look for in a 38 spl?.

Hard extraction, excessive expansion, primer pocket loosening and primer visuals will all give you signs before a cylinder lets go.

 

[Moe Mentum]

In .38 special I use 3.0 grains of Red Dot under a 158 grain plated bullet. Nice mild target load.

 

[Nevada Ed]

One reason that I shoot target loads 95% of the time.
Not that I don't like full loads in my 38 and 357 revolvers,
just that you never know when you might come into some bad
or weakened brass if reloading or even with new factory cases.

There can be bad cases right from the factory but this picture
shows a Factory case that was only reloaded twice with a full load with a 158gr XTP.
The bottom half ejected but I needed a pen to get the front half
to move back, out of the cylinder.
Never had it happen to a 38 case yet, just rim cracks and side splits, on weak cases.
They sit just above my PC as a reminder...........