Shield is UNSAFE

[TAROMAN]

 

[*chris*]

That is outrageous, I am placing that photo by my reloading bench to remind me what a double charge can do to a gun.

Hope your brothers hand heals well.

Chris

 

[Rastoff]

The first thing that came to mind when I saw the pics was that it may have involved an "over-pressure event", meaning an obstructed bore or something involving bullet setback, improperly loaded cartridge, etc.

I respect your experience, but I don't think this was an obstruction event. I'll explain in a minute...

How the chamber supports the casing has alot to do with the amount of damage.

No, if this was due to an unsupported chamber, the barrel wouldn't have broken.

I don't think it is from a squib.

I agree, this wasn't a squib or obstructed barrel.

I've seen a bunch of obstructed barrel events. In every one, except this one, there is some stretching or bulging of the barrel. Barrel length is irrelevant. This barrel has no such indication.

Everyone here, minus one, has said that this is an over pressure event. Some have said it's a double charge, but I don't agree with that at all. Yes, you can pack double the amount of powder in there, but it isn't easy. It could have been a little more powder, but that wouldn't generate enough pressure for this.

I do think there are two possible causes. The first is something fastbolt said; bullet setback. It is possible that a cartridge that isn't crimped properly will allow a bullet to be pushed back as it is chambered. This would create not just double, but potentially even more pressure. The problem with this is not just pressure, but speed. This pressure would build so quickly that the elasticity of the chamber is overcome and it fails. That would definitely cause what we see here:

Now, the one thing that hasn't been mentioned is metal failure. Steel is a crystalline structure. When tempered correctly it is somewhat elastic. If it isn't tempered correctly, it can become too hard and brittle. This barrel doesn't seem to have stretched at all. It did fracture though. Of course I'd have to take some measurements to be sure of that.

So, I think that while this might have been an over pressure event, I think it's more likely that this particular barrel just failed.

I know I'm late here, but that's my thoughts on the subject. Yes, I think this one belongs to S&W.

 

[ggoodman45auto]

I have been reloading 35 yrs. Never saw a failure like that. Some used wrong powder or powder chg. Sqip or double sqib or something. Reloading machine of so called commercial reloaded might have malfunctioned or operator forgrtful. If it's a S&W it not the gun. When I go back a few rounds and think I might have overloaded I throw the whole pile in a junk ammo bin. One time the fire Marshall took them all but don't live there anymore anyway positive it's not the gun itself.Send picture to smith or call they would probably love to get it or see piture

 

[K Frame Keith]

I will also suspect the reload to be his problem. Factory or not, this is almost always the case. We have seen this outcome across all platforms of all manufacturers.

Now that were are on this subject. This is a good friend of mines, Shield .40. He's been reloading for near 20 years. So u could say this surely isnt his first rodeo. However, we are all human and mistakes are made quite often. This is why its important to always double check ur work and not get in a hurry........This is the result of 12gr of Unigue in a .40 case.......I dont care what gun u own. If its loaded hot, chances are itll go kaboom. You cant blame human error on the weapon.

As far as I'm concerned, this remarkable post should pretty much put this unpleasant thread to an end. Case closed.

 

[Szumi]

I am curious. What sort of heat treating, if any is performed on the barrel? I'm not sure I want to bring my barrel to work to check it in the QA lab and put indents in it.

 

[ggibson511960]

Metal Properties??

Were it not for intellectual property protection, we might see a decent analysis of these failures that includes real forensic metallurgy, not speculation. As an engineer I am struck by the lack of deformation in the barrel. There's not much swelling at the rupture site, nor peel-back of attached shards. The failure is abrupt without permanent, inelastic deformation, pointing towards material less able to absorb strain energy, i.e. the much maligned MIM, not forged and machined material. MIM material is not generally considered to have the fracture toughness of equivalent metallurgy forged or rolled material. It's essentially cast with proprietary binders and pressured together under heat, an improved refinement of sintering. Great for mass producing finished parts, but not as fracture tough as forging or rolling. Somebody on this thread wondered if the barrel is MIM. Surely it is not, but S&W ought to put this to bed. The other question that might be answered is whether there was a material defect in the barrel. The fracture plane would not appear uniform across its area if all this got started by a de-lamination, void, porosity, or other defect. We'll never know, and that's a shame. S&W proof fires these weapons, but nobody outside the factory will ever know the proof protocol. How many fail? Proof marks? Makes me want to dye penetrant test my barrels.

What is interesting to note about both of the kaboom photographs here is the massive damage after initial failure. The first from the OP's photos is most dramatic. The slide fractured into pieces!! The barrel ruptured at its 6:00 o'clock (bottom) position and wrenched itself upward, breaking the slide. Is the slide MIM? It's a wonder the polymer frame pieces could be found. Their light weight probably propelled them away from the explosion site. Overpressure of this magnitude compels that the load was grossly over pressure. I hope this was the case, not a material defect in the barrel. I feel more in control of my own fate with a sound pistol if I am careful with reloads or chose not to use them.

 

[Philadelphia Patriot]

Assuming the problem was due to an overpressured round, it seems like the .40s&w shield doesn't handle it too well. I think that might something worth considering when buying a firearm.

Think of it this way. When buying a vehicle do you take into consideration its accident and highway safety testing and ratings? Stuff like this happens...even if it is to less than 1% of the shooting population. Personally, I'm weary of buying a shield in .40s&w. However, that did not stop me from buying a shield in 9mm.

 

[billspencer1956]

Funny no one mentioned anything about what kind of pressure can be achieved with a compressed load?

 

[NJM15]

I had a similar problem with my bargain basement Hi Point carbine
.40 cal using reloads. Luckily there was smoke and a bulge left in the barrel but no injuries. who knows I may have missed a load and caused a squib. sent it back and it was repaired and never had another problem with it. Of course I didn't mention reloads.

 

[NJM15]

IMO people buy Commercial reloads because they want what is assumed the best reloaded ammo! Commercial reloads IMO follow the same safety concerns and Factory new ammo. Only difference is one case is used the other is new! Now I agree some remanufactured ammo use's cheaper components but a good Co. will stay with quality! FYI I buy new as the few extra $$ doesn't hurt my budget! BUT if $$$ were tight I would go commercial reloads .... I am also planning on reloading my own again in the future! The OP did NOTHING wrong buying commercial reloads from a Co. that seems to have a good rep.

One of the members at the range had a catastrophic failure with factory reloads one was half packed with media increasing the pressure so high it cracked and locked up the cylinder A Cimarron revolver luckily no injuries, he weighed the rest and found one that didn't look the same pulled the bullet and found tumbler media in that one. In all fairness I wont mention the reloader by name

 

[Doug M.]

A double charge of 8 grains of Titegroup only occupies 55% of a case. The peak pressure of 104,000 psi occurs before the bullet moves 0.01" so most of the bullet is still in the case.

*
Outside my knowledge set, so I will assume that this is correct. Note that the math indicates a TRIPLE charge would occupy 82.5% of the case. That is probably enough to keep the bullet from going far enough in, but it is foreseeable that somewhere over a double charge could occur. How much pressure, "billspencer1956" asks? No idea, but a lot, and almost surely well outside the design parameters of the Shield and most other firearms. .40s are also prone to case setback - a double charge and a relatively modest amount of setback would make for what one could call one hell of a mess. (IIRC, someone who actually knows said on some other string that setback's impact on pressure is not linear, but goes up at a faster rate. I don't know.)

I suspect that quality firearm manufacturers build in a good amount of tolerance for over-pressure. However, if rsrocket1 is right in calling it 104K, that is almost exactly 3 times the SAAMI spec. I can't imagine any manufacturer building in that much tolerance.

We may never know which theory is right, over pressure or defect. Could be both. A small defect that would never mean anything with most loads, even if a bit overpressure, combined with a lot of overpressure, might create the results shown. I'm going to bet on over pressure from a defective load, but that is not a sure thing.

Let's get off the OP's back. He was rightly furious, I'm sure, and managed to write this without any "**" - better than I would do. I suspect he is a relatively new shooter. It takes a while to learn some nuanced pieces of information, such as a reliable source of reman ammo. Off the top of my head, I would only buy from Black Hills or Stan Chen (ASYM). I make that decision based on the recommendations of people who have a great deal of knowledge and whom I respect. My budget allows it. I suspect he now knows not to buy that ammo, or similar lower tier ammo, again.

He should contact S&W and allow them to inspect the gun. He should likewise contact the ammo maker. It will not be fast or pleasant to get this straightened out.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Anyone can make a mistake, even me and I can forgive a mistake. If the reloader responds respectfully, accepts responsibility and offers some kind of reasonable compensation I for one will not judge him negatively and in all probability continue to use his product.

Even a response as simple as Wow we are sorry it happened is everyone OK is so much better than trying to shift blame and denying any responsibility.

This has been an interesting discussion!

 

[GaryP]

In smitty357's pictures the barrel is cracked and distorted in the middle,but if you look closely at the op's close up of the barrel from the chamber line to the rear of the barrel it is flared outward,there are a few dark spots in the crack lines indicating possible fatigue before the explosion.Save the pic,rotate it to point upward then zoom in.

 

[scooter123]

Scooter123, you undoubtedly know way more about this than me, but I'm not sure my post was in any general terms wrong. What I was simply saying is that a 180 gr load, from a Shield, is a larger projectile than I would be interested in shooting from that gun and is at the top end of the spectrum for 40 cal loads. This would be especially true for this gun, I would think. It's not comfortable and not what the gun is best suited for, in my opinion.

I would imagine that all of the other details you list also hold true, but for simpletons like myself it's the utilitarian principles that make sense to me.

I reduce risk towards blowing up my guns by using them appropriately and with loads that make sense for their application. Hopefully that keeps me from posting pictures like those posted at the beginning of this thread.

My solution to his problem is very simple, avoid the top end of the 40 cal spectrum and you will inevitably avoid a greater chance of this happening. I say this since he seems to already have an opinion about the gun simply not being able to handle the load he chose to shoot. Although, as you and others have postulated, too much powder regardless of projectile size caused this failure.

Because I would consider myself an amateur gun enthusiast and not a reloader, I have to revert to simple concepts to keep myself safe. That was the point of my post, not to add misinformation. Thread is titled "Shield is unsafe", which I am disputing in simple terms. Not sure that adds any value to this discussion though.

You are equating bullet weight with the power produced and that is a mistake. Take the Federal 180 grain Champion load I mentioned, per Federal it produces 960 fps. with a 180 grain plated bullet. Muzzle Energy for this particular load is 370 ft.lbs. The load I carry for Defense is a Speer Gold Dot with a 165 grain bullet at 1150 fps. By your assumption this would be a weaker load due to the lighter bullet. However, I can assure you that it's not, in fact it produces 487 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy and sounds rather like a 357 Magnum at in indoor range. It's also a real Flinch Builder and I limit my practice with this ammunition to just 50 rounds per session. BTW, my carry pistol, a Sig Sauer P239 weighs in at a 30 ounce weight with an empty magazine so it's no light weight. I don't think I would be the least bit interested in trying the Speer Gold Dots an the lighter Shield, it just plain would too punishing.

I can also tell you that as a reloader that higher velocity loads aren't normally generated by higher pressures in a given caliber, they are achieved by using a slower burning powder that maintains the peak pressure for a longer period of time. Titegroup is a relatively "fast" powder and that is one reason why such light charge weights are needed per load. It's also a real favorite for light target loads due to the lower produced velocities with this faster burning powder. The problem with these "fast" powders is that in an overcharge situation it's not difficult to produce enough pressure to push the powder into Detonation. Which is what happened here.

 

[andyo5]

"I have been reloading my entire life and I have never seen anything like this. You cannot fit enough powder in a .40 shell to blow every piece of the firearm apart."

wanna bet - you supply the gun and Ill supply the load and the video to prove it.

Of COURSE you can add enough powder to a .40 case to cause a blow up. It is already a high pressure cartridge. And it also depends on what powder you are adding. Fill 'er up with Bullseye? I hope not.

 

[Rastoff]

This is the result of 12gr of Unigue in a .40 case.......

Did he intentionally put 12gr of Unique in a case and then try to fire it? If not, how do you know there was 12 grains of Unique in there at the time of firing?

 

[MichiganScott]

Google MBI Ammunition kabooms. Seems to be more than a couple of kabooms purportedly caused by MBI 55gr AR ammunition. Spontaneous disassembly of .40 S&W fed MBI ammo isn't unheard of either. Not sayin' that's what the problem was here, just that there is some interesting reading.

I hope we did not chase off the OP. I'd like to hear what the final resolution is of this.

 

[dacoontz]

You are equating bullet weight with the power produced and that is a mistake. Take the Federal 180 grain Champion load I mentioned, per Federal it produces 960 fps. with a 180 grain plated bullet. Muzzle Energy for this particular load is 370 ft.lbs. The load I carry for Defense is a Speer Gold Dot with a 165 grain bullet at 1150 fps. By your assumption this would be a weaker load due to the lighter bullet. However, I can assure you that it's not, in fact it produces 487 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy and sounds rather like a 357 Magnum at in indoor range. It's also a real Flinch Builder and I limit my practice with this ammunition to just 50 rounds per session. BTW, my carry pistol, a Sig Sauer P239 weighs in at a 30 ounce weight with an empty magazine so it's no light weight. I don't think I would be the least bit interested in trying the Speer Gold Dots an the lighter Shield, it just plain would too punishing.

I can also tell you that as a reloader that higher velocity loads aren't normally generated by higher pressures in a given caliber, they are achieved by using a slower burning powder that maintains the peak pressure for a longer period of time. Titegroup is a relatively "fast" powder and that is one reason why such light charge weights are needed per load. It's also a real favorite for light target loads due to the lower produced velocities with this faster burning powder. The problem with these "fast" powders is that in an overcharge situation it's not difficult to produce enough pressure to push the powder into Detonation. Which is what happened here.

That makes sense, but are you saying that bullet weight has nothing to do with recoil? That doesn't seem entirely correct. And when you say it's not difficult to produce enough pressure are you saying that with faster burning powder you can get greater pressure increases with smaller increases in powder as compared to slower burning powders which equates to less room for error? Just trying to learn something here.

 

[billspencer1956]

Standard pressure for a 40 S&W is 35k and the damage done to the barrel was caused from pressure closer to 100k. How did that happen?