38 vs 357 - risk factors

[ridgewalker]

Always be sure of your background is one of the Cardinal rules of shooting and applies whether you are at the range, out in the woods, or in a self defense situation.
I seem to remember reading stats on police shootings where the hit rate is very low, so misses are a very real possibility.
You may have to pass on taking the shot if the background is not safe.
Every shot you fire, you are responsible for where that bullet goes.

 

[Dennis The B]

I keep a 640 (.38 Special frame) for protection. It's loaded with the old "FBI" load; Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P. Works for me.

If I want flame and flash, I'll take my 3" 629-1 to the range at dusk.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I think overpenetration is a concern but picking a good quality hollowpoint load will minimize the risk (the risk can never be eliminated).

.357 Magnum loads can generate more power than .38 Special, but as others have said that comes along with more muzzle blast/flash and recoil, which can negatively impact how quickly and accurately you can make follow-up shots if needed. Personally, I would stick with .38 Special loads even if I had a steel .357 Magnum J-frame. For me, the trade-off in controllabililty for power isn't worth it.

Assuming your gun is a steel-framed model based on your description, +P loads should be perfectly acceptable.

I use Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P in my 642-1. My second choice would be Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure (I would choose this load over the +P version even in a steel K-frame due to quicker follow-up shots). If I couldn't find or afford either of those I'd probably go with Remington's 158gr LSWCHP +P. Of course, any of the current generation of modern hollowpoint loads with medium-to-heavy bullet weights would be acceptable to me if it was all I could find, it functioned reliably in my gun, and I could get good hits with it.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I recently watched a video by Massad Ayoob, in which he discussed ammunition choices. For snub nosed 38 specials he recommended +P lead semi wadcutters. His reasoning is that shot from a snubby, hollow points are unlikely to expand so they offer none of the advantages of a JHP round.

Are you sure you heard him right? I've never seen Ayoob, on video, in print, or online, recommend semiwadcutters for .38 Special snubs. He usually recommends the Speer SB-GDHP or some variation of the FBI load for snubs. Do you have a link to the video you watched? I'd like to check it out.

 

[andyo5]

Are you sure you heard him right? I've never seen Ayoob, on video, in print, or online, recommend semiwadcutters for .38 Special snubs. He usually recommends the Speer SB-GDHP or some variation of the FBI load for snubs. Do you have a link to the video you watched? I'd like to check it out.

Yes, I heard him right. This was a very lengthy interview-style video in which several topics related to SD were discussed in question and answer format.
He also advised that when shooting at an armed attacker who was charging at you, aim for the pelvis in an attempt to stop his forward motion and make him fall down. The theory being that a chest shot may eventually cause him to stop, but not before he has reached you and done whatever misdeeds he was planning.
I no longer have the link. If you Google Ayoob, you will probably find it.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Whatever you are most accurate with is best. More people are killed by 22LR than any other round (albeit mostly by ambush/assassination). I prefer 357 as even the concussion of a near miss may unnerve an amateur assailant a hit should be the end of the encounter. If you are firing in the direction of friendlies/bystanders, best to change the direction.

 

[bountyhunter]

I have a 1992 classic 38 Special (no +P), my one and only, concealed carry 99% of the time. It has come to my attention that a model 640 357 weighs only one ounce more, and of course has considerably more horsepower. I worry, however, about the possibility, with all that extra horsepower, if a 357 JHP might pass through the bad guy and kill a bystander behind him. Would greatly appreciate your input.

That is exactly why I don't have .357 rounds in my defense gun. I am using .38 +p 129 grain defense rounds, dont remember the brand. I would never sleep again if I fired a round that went through a sheet rock wall and hit a bystander.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Be careful about the wanting of "fast " follow up shots.
Eric once said,"Accuracy is King , Penetration is Queen ,
Every thing else ,is Angels dancing on the head of a pin".
How fast do you need to shoot, how long will the target take to react,
If one could have done it, and you shoot 5 ,6, or empty the gun
you start looking like some of these bad cops.
One in the middle is better than 6 on the edges.
Two in two seconds in the middle is better than 5 or 6
in one sec on the edges.

 

[Dennis The B]

Yes, I heard him right. This was a very lengthy interview-style video in which several topics related to SD were discussed in question and answer format.
He also advised that when shooting at an armed attacker who was charging at you, aim for the pelvis in an attempt to stop his forward motion and make him fall down. The theory being that a chest shot may eventually cause him to stop, but not before he has reached you and done whatever misdeeds he was planning.
I no longer have the link. If you Google Ayoob, you will probably find it.

I know a lot of folks in this world hang on everyone of Mas' words. However, every bit of training I've had since the early 70's has taught that your point of aim should always be center mass. Aiming for the pelvis and hoping you hit the bone, causing a fall is just that, hope.

He's also stated a number of times that you have to say that you've shot someone in order to claim self-defense.

I've had at least two lawyers, both with backgrounds in criminal law, and self defense, tell me in classes that you should never admit to anything; either to the 911 operator, or the police. If there is any doubt in your mind, you should say nothing until you've been checked out by a doctor skilled in trauma, and you've spoken to your attorney. There are also two excellent videos on You Tube. They both explain in great detail why you should never talk to the police. They're both presented by a law professor at a Virginia law school.

In the very first self defense class I attended in the early 1970's, we went through a drill where the perp was visible from 21 feet away. You could not tell he was armed, and you were armed with a dummy gun which was holstered.

At 21 feet, the "perp" the perp turned, charged, and was on me before I could draw and clear leather. He had a rubber knife, and I would have been dead or badly cut. I was 26 at the time and my reflexes were excellent. There were a number of police officers in the class, as well as persons skilled in martial arts. None of them fared any better.

 

[Dondaz]

I have trained at night qualifications with the 357 mag and the fire ball out of a snubby is huge and can even be blinding it is for that reason I keep 38 spl in my home protection firearms. When I was in law enforcement we used the ammo we were issued and had no choice and we had to use the magnums.

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

I couldnt get winchester pdx to expand.they passed right through my test media. Federal hst always expand. Critical defense ditto. Out of the 638.
Try to test any ammo you have and make your own conclusions

 

[t0073]

Thank you all for the excellent replies. My 38 is steel, but for some reason is not labeled for +P, which I think S&W confirmed. In any event, I would rather be cautious. The consensus would imply I need to spend a lot more time at the range, and that the 640 with 38+P is the sweet spot. Further perspectives are of course most welcome.

 

[DonD]

I'm no fan of a basic non +P 38 Special, marginally adequate in my view. I carry Hornady Critical Duty +P in 9mm or a hot .357 for CCW. Having said that I don't believe a single poster touched on one basic issue.

There have been endless discussions of overpenetration in defensive shoots. I have yet to see a documented case of overpenetration wounding or killing someone on the other side of the assailant. I don't want to hear "my best friend said...blah, blah, blah. Show me a police report or court case.

Other posters have touched on a far bigger issue, misses, an issue for someone who has never been there defending themselves and under great stress. Trust me, this isn't chest thumping, I've never been anywhere near any encounter and hope I never am.

That's a major reason I won't carry in a busy public facility like Walmart or a large grocery store. Your assailant might be moving and innocents will be scattering everywhere, nightmare scenario. Don

 

[ContinentalOp]

There have been endless discussions of overpenetration in defensive shoots. I have yet to see a documented case of overpenetration wounding or killing someone on the other side of the assailant. I don't want to hear "my best friend said...blah, blah, blah. Show me a police report or court case.

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com

According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full-metal-jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects.

In that same period, officers in the Transit Bureau, who already used the hollow points, struck six bystanders. Four of them were hit directly, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another was hit by a bullet that passed through an object.

In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by police gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed though other people. Of the four officers struck by hollow-point bullets, three were hit directly and one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

*Bolding by me.

 

[Kframerbluvr]

Firing a .357 round in any sort of enclosed area, especially from a snub, is something I would prefer to avoid. I no longer own anything chambered in .357. All of my HD/CC revolvers are loaded either with 158 grain LHP +P (all of my '70s era .38s) or 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P ( 442-2 bought new in 2013).

 

[DonD]

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com



*Bolding by me.

Thanks, Continental for providing actual data. Doesn't bother me to be proven wrong.

It won't, however, change what I carry. I carry what I consider the most effective round on the market, hoping that I never need one. Don

 

[Neumann]

There's no guarantee that a bullet will not pass completely through your assailant. That's why you need to be aware of the background. Shoot high, shoot kneeling, most of all learn to move and shoot. The last is easier than you might think, and makes you a more difficult target.

A snubbie doesn't have .357 ballistics. By what measure? It's pretty obvious to me that .357 M from a 3" revolver has more thump than a .38 SPL. Maybe it's 900 fps instead of 1200, but a .38 would be pressed to top 600 fps. Can I control it for a fast followup? You bet. It's even a little exciting to see the sights silhouetted against a wall of orange flame.

 

[cmj8591]

What's beyond your target and where your bullet is going to end up are two of the many factors that you must reconcile in that instant before you pull the trigger. Regardless of the threat, you are responsible for where every bullet ends up.

 

[Hapworth]

Firing a .357 round in any sort of enclosed area, especially from a snub, is something I would prefer to avoid. I no longer own anything chambered in .357. All of my HD/CC revolvers are loaded either with 158 grain LHP +P (all of my '70s era .38s) or 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P ( 442-2 bought new in 2013).

Excellent defensive loads, and agreed on .357 if it's full house, but there are many excellent defensive .357 loads out there now that are well controlled for flash, bang and recoil, while still providing more punch (and likelihood of expansion) than 38+P.

 

[t0073]

Dear Mr Hapworth,
What would you recommend in 357 that is "well controlled for flash, bang, and recoil"? Thank you!