38 vs 357 - risk factors

^^^^ It is often reported that during a robbery a customer that was CC fired at the perp and not hitting them after firing several times.
Same thing with shoot outs the cops have, maybe dozens of shots fired and lucky if a few might make a hit on the targeted person.
I watched a cop show about a gang related shooting which they found 30+ casings but only one person killed and one with a leg wound. The person killed was from a bg standing on the car roof shooting down into the guy crouched on the ground by the trunk. So maybe 5'-7' away at most. I was a 380 that entered his shoulder area through his heart and lung ending in his intestines. The guy ran maybe 10-20 yards before dropping dead. So much for a 380 isn't enough gun. Also so much for a BG dropping like a rock and the fight being over. Like they say placement is everything but even in this vital organs hit the guy still was able to run away. The cop said the most casings found at a shooting was 70+.
 
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At one time my duty load was 158 grain LSW/HP+P (hollow point version of the FBI load) in my model marked M36-1. At the time S&W approved +P for use in any model marked steel frame 38. Frankly, modern ammo is less hot than those 1970's loads.
 
What the???????

I called S&W, and they said my steel snubbie was made in April 1993, and that +P guns didn't start until 1997. He indicated that it could lead to cylinder or frame damage.

The +P designation started in the mid 1970s. My model 10 could handle continuous plus P without even blinking. I think a few alloy and aluminum models could be weak for long use, but most guns produced since about 1960 could take plus p loads. I hate to disagree with what you heard from S&W, but this may be more of the over cautious attitude due to liability or something.:confused::(:mad:
 
I was thinking lately that I need a hobby, and you all have convinced me that I need to spend a lot of time at the shooting range. I'm leaning towards the 357, but clearly need to practice with the full range of loads and find the sweet spot for me. Thank you very much for all your help.
 
Particularly out of a J-Frame, it doesn't matter how well you can shoot .357, you will shoot .38 Special better. Even with the vaunted .357, you can't count on a "one shot stop," especially with a handgun, perhaps even less so with a snubby. As stated above, I would be more worried about a missed shot than over penetration. Also keep in mind that with the bullet technology available today, one doesn't need maximum velocity. One just needs enough velocity for the bullet to do its job: that is to penetrate deeply enough to reach something vital in the target's anatomy and be able to do enough damage to that vital structure once it gets there.

Of course, the decision is yours to make. Enjoy the journey of discovery, and please share with us any conclusions you reach.
 
Particularly out of a J-Frame, it doesn't matter how well you can shoot .357, you will shoot .38 Special better. Even with the vaunted .357, you can't count on a "one shot stop," especially with a handgun, perhaps even less so with a snubby. As stated above, I would be more worried about a missed shot than over penetration. Also keep in mind that with the bullet technology available today, one doesn't need maximum velocity. One just needs enough velocity for the bullet to do its job: that is to penetrate deeply enough to reach something vital in the target's anatomy and be able to do enough damage to that vital structure once it gets there.

Of course, the decision is yours to make. Enjoy the journey of discovery, and please share with us any conclusions you reach.

I agree that a J frame with higher power .357 ammo would be fairly uncontrollable for most people. And I don't believe in the 'one shot stop' which means that you need to be able to make quick follow up shots. I was fooling around with a light pistol with heavy loads last range and I was thinking, "There ain't no way I'm going to get a decent follow up shot with that."
 
Certain considerations for snub ammo

This is a topic of numerous discussions across forums and across the web for many years. My considerations when selecting ammunition for a 2" or shorter barrel are enough velocity to allow the bullet to perform properly (not too much or too little penetration), repeatable results, manageable recoil, availability, the round not jumping the crimp, and of course a round safe for the gun. A bullet can over-penetrate if the velocity is too low to allow the bullet to expand. This is problematic also because the lack of expansion means the bullet is not dumping it's energy in the target. One of my peeves is ammo boxes with velocity figures that don't mention what it was shot out of. Useless. While you can find numerous chronograph results on the web, I look to gel testing for comparison of various rounds head to head, and only if they are shot out of a 2" or shorter barrel. I would not look to the performance of ammo in a 3" revolver to compare to a 2" snub (100FPS lower velocity can cause unacceptable results in a particular round). One may start at ballisticsbytheinch.com, but consider that velocity of rounds out of 2" snubs is in some cases more comparable to a 3" unvented barrel (because the revolver chamber is not included in the barrel length). They do have chrono on some loads out of SW snubs, but they are limited. Still, it it interesting to compare speed out of various revolvers. The muzzle energy charts are also interesting. I should note that BBTI results indicate some revolvers of of different manufacturer even with same length barrel have different velocities with same ammo. The info appears to be from around 2008, and does not include many modern loads. I found it insightful to go here for gel testing: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWFWuY7JafjZNE_dG8BshAThere While I did not see 38/357 tested, there are 39 videos just related to 9mm; the one titled "CorBon Pow'R Ball vs Original 115+P JHP test ", is where he gives some conclusions (video 37 of the 9mm series). Although he was testing 9mm out of sub 3" semi-autos, his testing and observations were insightful as to what we look for out of a gel test, and some of his conclusions may apply to snubs. For example, he was carrying 9mm Critical Duty in his CCW. When he saw the round's poor performance from a short barrel, he immediately stopped carrying it. Apparently that round was not getting up to speed in his gun. This could be the case with certain Critical Duty rounds in a in a snub as well; I don't know. On the other hand, Critical Defense was an acceptable performer in at least one configuration, if I recall correctly. He discovered that certain revered bullets would not perform if not pushed fast enough, but at sufficient velocities they performed well consistently. The trick was getting the round up to speed from a short barrel. This would apply to both short SA and snub guns. Some prominent manufacturers had rounds that fell short in the testing. 100 FPS could make the difference in a particular bullet passing the test. He also tested 380 rounds (from short barreled guns) in a different set of videos and reached some useful and interesting conclusions. Too bad he did no 38/357 testing, but I'm sure it is out there on the web if you look hard enough. If someone knows where, please point me to it; I've not gotten around to tracking it down yet. He calibrated gel for testing and gave very good video on results (speed, expansion, penetration). I have a friend who bought a 9mm revolver. We are going to chrono some of the top-performing loads out of that revolver and a some 38/357 loadings. As for Mas Ayoob, he has probably at some point recommended full wadcutters, semi-wadcutters (at least as preferred to FMJ), and certainly LSWCHP, all for use in a snub at some time or other. So while this testing was all 9mm, I find it insightful as to what may or may not be happening with the ammo from a snub. You won't know until you see it tested from a 2" barrel revolver.
EDIT: Holy smokes! Long post. The truth is out there. Look it up.
 
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I'm waiting a bit, hoping to trade up to the S&W 640 when a real estate sale closes on the 24th. In the meantime, I found this today - Most Versatile Handgun: The .38 Special, .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum Revolver
which echoes many of the things we've discussed here. I particularly like the part about bears - they wander into Seattle suburbs from time to time. So it looks like there's a lot of versatility in the 357, depending on the load and the situation.
 
Groo here
Be careful about the wanting of "fast " follow up shots.
Eric once said,"Accuracy is King , Penetration is Queen ,
Every thing else ,is Angels dancing on the head of a pin".
How fast do you need to shoot, how long will the target take to react,

One in the middle is better than 6 on the edges.
Two in two seconds in the middle is better than 5 or 6
in one sec on the edges.

I just heard this paraphrased by Rick on the Walking Dead teaching someone how to shoot defensively. Take that extra second to think.
 
Someone suggested that you will miss over 50% of the time. I've read time and time again that police hit 25% of the time in gunfights. What will your ratio be? I've suggested that this supports big magazines. How many shots do you need if 3 guys invade your house? 10 in the mag = maybe 2-3 hits, or less?
 
I know a lot of folks in this world hang on everyone of Mas' words. However, every bit of training I've had since the early 70's has taught that your point of aim should always be center mass. Aiming for the pelvis and hoping you hit the bone, causing a fall is just that, hope.

He's also stated a number of times that you have to say that you've shot someone in order to claim self-defense.

I've had at least two lawyers, both with backgrounds in criminal law, and self defense, tell me in classes that you should never admit to anything; either to the 911 operator, or the police. If there is any doubt in your mind, you should say nothing until you've been checked out by a doctor skilled in trauma, and you've spoken to your attorney. There are also two excellent videos on You Tube. They both explain in great detail why you should never talk to the police. They're both presented by a law professor at a Virginia law school.

In the very first self defense class I attended in the early 1970's, we went through a drill where the perp was visible from 21 feet away. You could not tell he was armed, and you were armed with a dummy gun which was holstered.

At 21 feet, the "perp" the perp turned, charged, and was on me before I could draw and clear leather. He had a rubber knife, and I would have been dead or badly cut. I was 26 at the time and my reflexes were excellent. There were a number of police officers in the class, as well as persons skilled in martial arts. None of them fared any better.

If I/we must utilize our God given 2nd Amendment rights.

The 911 Call.

"I have been the victim of a crime." Hang up. When the Police show up; the only thing we will say is "contact my attorney."

Breathing is all they will hear. We won't even discuss weather. Loose lips sink ships.

We/I simply do not trust Gov't of any size...Imagine that!

Better days ahead my friends...
 
A proper 158 grain 357 hollowpoint will be fine. It will have very little energy left if it even exits the bad guy. You're more likely to miss altogether which is bigger danger to bystanders. In any case I'm happy with 38 special. Penetrates and expands fine and same size bullets
 
This is a topic of numerous discussions across forums and across the web for many years. My considerations when selecting ammunition for a 2" or shorter barrel are enough velocity to allow the bullet to perform properly (not too much or too little penetration), repeatable results, manageable recoil, availability, the round not jumping the crimp, and of course a round safe for the gun. A bullet can over-penetrate if the velocity is too low to allow the bullet to expand. This is problematic also because the lack of expansion means the bullet is not dumping it's energy in the target. One of my peeves is ammo boxes with velocity figures that don't mention what it was shot out of. Useless. While you can find numerous chronograph results on the web, I look to gel testing for comparison of various rounds head to head, and only if they are shot out of a 2" or shorter barrel. I would not look to the performance of ammo in a 3" revolver to compare to a 2" snub (100FPS lower velocity can cause unacceptable results in a particular round). One may start at ballisticsbytheinch.com, but consider that velocity of rounds out of 2" snubs is in some cases more comparable to a 3" unvented barrel (because the revolver chamber is not included in the barrel length). They do have chrono on some loads out of SW snubs, but they are limited. Still, it it interesting to compare speed out of various revolvers. The muzzle energy charts are also interesting. I should note that BBTI results indicate some revolvers of of different manufacturer even with same length barrel have different velocities with same ammo. The info appears to be from around 2008, and does not include many modern loads. I found it insightful to go here for gel testing: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWFWuY7JafjZNE_dG8BshAThere While I did not see 38/357 tested, there are 39 videos just related to 9mm; the one titled "CorBon Pow'R Ball vs Original 115+P JHP test ", is where he gives some conclusions (video 37 of the 9mm series). Although he was testing 9mm out of sub 3" semi-autos, his testing and observations were insightful as to what we look for out of a gel test, and some of his conclusions may apply to snubs. For example, he was carrying 9mm Critical Duty in his CCW. When he saw the round's poor performance from a short barrel, he immediately stopped carrying it. Apparently that round was not getting up to speed in his gun. This could be the case with certain Critical Duty rounds in a in a snub as well; I don't know. On the other hand, Critical Defense was an acceptable performer in at least one configuration, if I recall correctly. He discovered that certain revered bullets would not perform if not pushed fast enough, but at sufficient velocities they performed well consistently. The trick was getting the round up to speed from a short barrel. This would apply to both short SA and snub guns. Some prominent manufacturers had rounds that fell short in the testing. 100 FPS could make the difference in a particular bullet passing the test. He also tested 380 rounds (from short barreled guns) in a different set of videos and reached some useful and interesting conclusions. Too bad he did no 38/357 testing, but I'm sure it is out there on the web if you look hard enough. If someone knows where, please point me to it; I've not gotten around to tracking it down yet. He calibrated gel for testing and gave very good video on results (speed, expansion, penetration). I have a friend who bought a 9mm revolver. We are going to chrono some of the top-performing loads out of that revolver and a some 38/357 loadings. As for Mas Ayoob, he has probably at some point recommended full wadcutters, semi-wadcutters (at least as preferred to FMJ), and certainly LSWCHP, all for use in a snub at some time or other. So while this testing was all 9mm, I find it insightful as to what may or may not be happening with the ammo from a snub. You won't know until you see it tested from a 2" barrel revolver.
EDIT: Holy smokes! Long post. The truth is out there. Look it up.
Most of the modern rounds are adjusts to expand for each round...bullet in 147 grain 357 sig will open slightly slower than 147 in 9mm to avoid velocity causing it to open too fast
 
Yup. Does that make it any less important to know when you're pulling the trigger if there are bystanders behind, beside or in between you and your target? Nope.
Like I said, it is a nice idea, but not applicable to the real world. Focusing on the front sight is more likely to prevent injury to bystanders.
 
Like I said, it is a nice idea, but not applicable to the real world. Focusing on the front sight is more likely to prevent injury to bystanders.
Politely, but since you're insisting, nope, it's a lot more than a "nice idea" -- knowing whether or not you have a safe shot is fundamental to firearms handling and situational awareness, and isn't just applicable to real world use, it's critical to it.
 
I think I've evolved a strategy (and working on excuses to buy now rather than wait). Obviously, a lot of range time with the 640, working up from 38 special, range of grains, to +P, to ultimately the 158 grain 357. As for carry, I think the Glaser 80 grain fragmenter fits my mall, restaurant, and grocery store habits, but I'm thinking two HSK speedloaders on board, one with 158 grain JHP's and one with the Buffalo 180 grain for the theoretical bear encounter. I think that covers the field, and demonstrates the versatility of which Chuck Hawks spoke above.
 
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The problem that I see is that the .357 fired in a 2" barrel gives you precious little additional velocity per given weight of bullet than the .38 Special, but a hell of a lot more recoil and muzzle blast/flash. I have NOT tried the .357 for short barrel guns. For me I like the Hornady Critical Defense Lite and I load my practice rounds to simulate the recoil of that round. I find practicing with what you carry is good and beating myself up is not. My wrists dislike heavy recoil now so the light weight .38's are just fine.
 
I get where you're coming, SGT 45, I really do. This will be probably my last of many trades. I guess the versatility in various situations is what appeals the most. I may end up using a 38 / 38+P cartridge in the long term, but I look forward to trying the various loads at the range, and improving my skill.
 

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