Over penetration and risk to bystanders

[FederalHST]

I've been thinking about this issue for a while... it was raised in another thread and I thought it deserved its own discussion..

FBI requires a bullet to penetrate 12 - 18 inches... This could mean there will be over penetration and he injury/ death of a bystander.

I've been replaying the terrorist attack here in Columbus, Ohio about a month ago where a perp started to hack 4 people up with a sword. A busy restaurant... people running around... and I'm imagining having to take a shot while this guy is hacking on people.

The only "safe" shot I can imagine is to somehow get close enough and low enough that over penetration would be above the other people... ( granted that the bullet may not travel a strait line through and up and could hit another person) -

In this process of being safe, it may give the perp the time to kill someone... so the pressure to take the shot would be huge.

Is the "rule of thumb" to never risk the possibility of over-penetration? To always assume that it will, so therefore the background must always be clear of people? IF so, in this case where this guy is hacking away at people, he may kill one or more, while waiting for a "safe shot"...

I would like to know how other people would handle this situation... and how they plan to compensate their "shot" regarding over penetration..

 

[NYlakesider]

While O.P. is a valid concern I would be more worried about the slug that missed hitting. That would have much more power that one that hit something and got slowed down.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

While O.P. is a valid concern I would be more worried about the slug that missed hitting. That would have much more power that one that hit something and got slowed down.

And probably happens a lot more often, too. Ask NYPD.

 

[kcbet2]

Thoughts on this subject

Part of the reasoning behind the 12-18 inches is the fact that in most gunfights your target will not be standing still and facing straight on. Most will be moving and presenting to you at various angles. While a straight on shot that penetrates 6 inches would be enough to go to the center of mass, an angled shot through a person's side would need to penetrate deeper to reach the center of body mass. Also think about a shot that may have to pass through the flesh of an arm and then into the body to effect the stop.

No ammo is going to be perfect under all conditions. Lots of things will affect performance. I think the best protection to limit risk to bystanders is going to be shot placement and of course I understand that is better said than done in a high stress situation.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Over thinking and risk to braincells.

Cross that bridge if you EVER get to it.

I'm 60 and had a firearm available for 30+ years. Never been drawn for SD yet. Hope it stays that way.

 

[FederalHST]

Yes... a miss is the ultimate OP and the reason the background must be clear of bystanders... I guess as I play through the scenario I mentioned, I see "hack, hack, hack" and pandemonium all around... and no absolutely clear shot.

The bottom line is you CAN NOT risk injury to others in the attempt to save those being assaulted. As we assume a firearm is always loaded, we must also assume anything behind the target will be hit as well.

Maybe some other means to incapacitate the perp needs to be used? Which raises the question of what could that intervention be? What would you do in this situation if you could not get a safe shot in? Or would/could you wait till one came open while the assault continued? Time is ticking - hack - hack - hack

 

[Muss Muggins]

An overblown self-defense consideration. I worry more about misses than anything else.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Time is ticking - hack - hack - hack

This event at a nearby Walmart was offered as a lesson by a Greenville County Sheriff's Deputy during my CWP class. To highlight that while intervention would be legal in this instance, it is optional.
Midday Christmas shopping rush, scores of witnesses, seven of whom revealed during statements that they were CC permit holders and were armed. An unarmed customer intervened.

Holiday shoppers' horror as 'man stabs his wife to death' in a Walmart on Saturday afternoon - and store stays OPEN | Daily Mail Online

 

[moxie]

For clarity, the FBI 12-18" penetration requirement is in ballistic gelatin, NOT in people. There is no direct comparison between gelatin and people.

 

[Arik]

The reason for the 12 - 18 inches is because while your paper target may face you directly a live bad guy may not necessarily stand there facing you with his chest exposed. Could be a side shot or partial side or arm in the way, clothing, some kind of a partial barrier or a weapon. Some people have more fat or more muscle mass. That's the reason.

 

[Ed Fowler]

This was and is also one of my greatest concerns. Could have taken shots, but did not because of the danger of over penetration. That is why I chose light high velocity bullets like the Hornady 90 grain 9mm for example.

I made the decision a long time ago that I would rather sacrifice my life rather than shoot an innocent bystander. Jut a choice we each must make for ourselves.

 

[StakeOut]

And probably happens a lot more often, too. Ask NYPD.

The ones that miss are called warning shots

 

[mikesp11]

The ones that miss are called warning shots

We (NYPD) fired a LOT of warning shots...our hit ratio sucked..LOL

 

[Magload]

I get tighter groups with my 12ga @ 40yds then a lot of people I see at the range get @ 5yds with their carry guns. If they can't hit a paper dinner plate at 3 yards then I hope no one else is in the room when they have to use it.

 

[rwsmith]

Don't use.....

Don't use ball ammo but a bullet designed with over penetration in mind. I wouldn't want to shoot with somebody in the line of fire but I wonder if in a real situation there would be time to evaluate it. I'm NOT a SEAL, retired or otherwise and my lightning quick wits and actions aren't that lightning quick any more.

 

[Rastoff]

I agree with those saying that a miss is more concerning than over-penetration.

For those who say that over-penetration is a big concern, please cite a case where it actually happened and an innocent was harmed.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I agree with those saying that a miss is more concerning than over-penetration.

For those who say that over-penetration is a big concern, please cite a case where it actually happened and an innocent was harmed.

Well, I can think of one notable over-penetration case, although opinions continue to vary . . .

The Kennedy Assassination

The first round that struck President Kennedy also struck Governor Connally . . .

 

[StakeOut]

It's a proven fact that more rounds miss than hit the target.

Even more miss when there was a foot chase right before the shots were fired.

"The first round that struck President Kennedy also struck Governor Connally . . ."

I thought a 2nd shot came from the grassy knoll

 

[NYlakesider]

It's a proven fact that more rounds miss than hit the target.

Even more miss when there was a foot chase right before the shots were fired.

"The first round that struck President Kennedy also struck Governor Connally . . ."

I thought a 2nd shot came from the grassy knoll

That's optional: it depends on what conspiracy theory you subscribe to!

 

[bigggbbruce]

Well, I can think of one notable over-penetration case, although opinions continue to vary . . .

The Kennedy Assassination

The first round that struck President Kennedy also struck Governor Connally . . .

I guess it would be a concern then if you CCW an AR pistol.