Why not try to improve anything and everything. If we hadn't had that mind set we'd be stuffing round balls down the muzzle of a flintlock, sticking the crank in front of our cars to start the engine, filling the ink wells on the desks in school and hitching up old "Nellie" to the plow.
Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels
- Thread starter Llando88
- Start date
Randy Lee
Member
I believe a lot of the debate revolves around the question: What do you want to accomplish with your pistol?
If your pistol shoots acceptable groups to your personal standards and ability, then there is no need to try an aftermarket barrel.
If you want to reduce your group size because you've found that your gun will not shoot better than 5" @ 25 yards no matter what load you put through it or who shoots it, then perhaps it's worth it to gamble on on a drop in aftermarket barrel.
If you want to really push the boundaries of mechanical accuracy, then it may be worth it to the owner to have a barrel fitted to the slide and frame. Be it ours, Bar-Sto or any other aftermarket barrel that comes down the pike.
Regardless of what barrel you use, it will never produce the desired results if a) you feed it inconsistent ammunition or b) cannot shoot groups approaching the mechanical accuracy of the gun.
If your pistol shoots acceptable groups to your personal standards and ability, then there is no need to try an aftermarket barrel.
If you want to reduce your group size because you've found that your gun will not shoot better than 5" @ 25 yards no matter what load you put through it or who shoots it, then perhaps it's worth it to gamble on on a drop in aftermarket barrel.
If you want to really push the boundaries of mechanical accuracy, then it may be worth it to the owner to have a barrel fitted to the slide and frame. Be it ours, Bar-Sto or any other aftermarket barrel that comes down the pike.
Regardless of what barrel you use, it will never produce the desired results if a) you feed it inconsistent ammunition or b) cannot shoot groups approaching the mechanical accuracy of the gun.
TacticalReload
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Quick update.
I ordered and fitted an Apex SDI barrel into my M&P9 4.25" Performance Center. Here are the results. I shot from 20 yards (max distance at my range). I didn't have sandbags so I braced my wrists on my soft range bag which was not a proper rest but was as close to a reasonable approximation as I could put to use. Same ammo, same day, same gun, same distance -- different barrel. I shot a few different types of ammo during this session and the results were similar across the board.
Factory OEM barrel:
Glorious ~10" spread!
Best OEM group of the day
Apex Tactical Barrel:
I don't work for Apex. I don't have friends that work at Apex. I didn't receive this barrel for free. Nothing shady is going on here. YMMV.
So all those S&W apologists who immediately jump to blaming the shooter despite whatever evidence is presented to the contrary can put that in their pipes and smoke it. Practice is no doubt going to make someone a better shooter. However, I can practice flapping my arms all day and all night; but no amount of practice will make me ever take flight. Just how widespread the problem is would be anyone's guess, but based on the years of complaints I doubt I'm the only one that has a genuine issue.
I ordered and fitted an Apex SDI barrel into my M&P9 4.25" Performance Center. Here are the results. I shot from 20 yards (max distance at my range). I didn't have sandbags so I braced my wrists on my soft range bag which was not a proper rest but was as close to a reasonable approximation as I could put to use. Same ammo, same day, same gun, same distance -- different barrel. I shot a few different types of ammo during this session and the results were similar across the board.
Factory OEM barrel:
Glorious ~10" spread!
Best OEM group of the day
Apex Tactical Barrel:
I don't work for Apex. I don't have friends that work at Apex. I didn't receive this barrel for free. Nothing shady is going on here. YMMV.
So all those S&W apologists who immediately jump to blaming the shooter despite whatever evidence is presented to the contrary can put that in their pipes and smoke it. Practice is no doubt going to make someone a better shooter. However, I can practice flapping my arms all day and all night; but no amount of practice will make me ever take flight. Just how widespread the problem is would be anyone's guess, but based on the years of complaints I doubt I'm the only one that has a genuine issue.
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Quick update.
I ordered and fitted an Apex SDI barrel into my M&P9 4.25" Performance Center. Here are the results. I shot from 20 yards (max distance at my range). I didn't have sandbags so I braced my wrists on my soft range bag which was not a proper rest but was as close to a reasonable approximation as I could put to use. Same ammo, same day, same gun, same distance -- different barrel. I shot a few different types of ammo during this session and the results were similar across the board.
Factory OEM barrel:
Glorius ~10" spread!
Best OEM group of the day
Apex Tactical Barrel:
I don't work for Apex. I don't have friends that work at Apex. I didn't receive this barrel for free. Nothing shady is going on here. YMMV.
So all those S&W apologists who immediately jump to blaming the shooter despite whatever evidence is presented to the contrary can put that in their pipes and smoke it. Practice is no doubt going to make someone a better shooter. However, I can practice flapping my arms all day and all night; but no amount of practice will make me ever take flight. Just how widespread the problem is would be anyone's guess, but based on the years of complaints I doubt I'm the only one that has a genuine issue.
Apex products rule!!!! I have no affiliation with Apex and have paid for all Apex products. They know how to make a gun group and shoot the way the pistol should.
Srruger762
Member
Randy Lee
Member
I had never heard of accuracy issues with the M&P FS 9mm until I searched and found this forum. I really like the feel of the pistol and looks. I installed a set of TFO sights before firing it the 1st time. That 1st trip was a major disappointment. I literally could not tell if the sights needed adjustment. I was about to order the APEX Semi fit or the Wilson Match barrel when it was suggested that I call S&W. I was told before that my serial number was an earlier one and my pistol had been sitting somewhere on a shelf for a few years.
Anyway, I called and complained about "Poor Targeting" and sent my pistol in. 4 weeks later it was sent back with a short repair order stating "Range tested and could not duplicate issue. No repair needed."
Believe that? Not test target, no mention of how it was range tested. I sold it the next day. I've been use to Glock G19, Beretta PX4, FS92, and even my old S&W Sigma was an accurate little gun. But the M&P wouldn't group 4-5" at 10yrds. I don't care how inexperienced a shooter is, if that shooter can shoot 1-2" groups with 4 different pistols and suddenly can't group one particular pistol at all, then chances are the pistol has accuracy issues.
So, now I'm hooked on a new little jewel, the Walther PPQ M2 in 9mm. It comes complete with a target with 5 rnds, so I know the pistol is capable even if I'm not. I only wish S&W would have included the same even after spending the money to ship the pistol, it would have went a long way toward convincing me that their pistol is capable as well.
The Walther ^^^^
Anyway, I called and complained about "Poor Targeting" and sent my pistol in. 4 weeks later it was sent back with a short repair order stating "Range tested and could not duplicate issue. No repair needed."
Believe that? Not test target, no mention of how it was range tested. I sold it the next day. I've been use to Glock G19, Beretta PX4, FS92, and even my old S&W Sigma was an accurate little gun. But the M&P wouldn't group 4-5" at 10yrds. I don't care how inexperienced a shooter is, if that shooter can shoot 1-2" groups with 4 different pistols and suddenly can't group one particular pistol at all, then chances are the pistol has accuracy issues.
So, now I'm hooked on a new little jewel, the Walther PPQ M2 in 9mm. It comes complete with a target with 5 rnds, so I know the pistol is capable even if I'm not. I only wish S&W would have included the same even after spending the money to ship the pistol, it would have went a long way toward convincing me that their pistol is capable as well.
The Walther ^^^^
SHHHHHH!
That doesn't sell specialty barrels!
M&P states the expected accuracy in their users manual. If that's not good enough, buy an Apex trigger and barrel. Myself, I have a LOT of work to do before I get to that point.
If somebody wants to improve a production car, that's their business.
Even if it's a Yugo, if somebody wants to improve it, it's their business.
If you tell me that it isn't worthwhile, I'll take that into consideration but it may not change my mind.
That doesn't sell specialty barrels!
M&P states the expected accuracy in their users manual. If that's not good enough, buy an Apex trigger and barrel. Myself, I have a LOT of work to do before I get to that point.
If somebody wants to improve a production car, that's their business.
Even if it's a Yugo, if somebody wants to improve it, it's their business.
If you tell me that it isn't worthwhile, I'll take that into consideration but it may not change my mind.
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agksimon
Member
I had an M&P 9 Compact that couldn't do better than 5-6 inches at 25 yards, off a rest, but I thought that was pretty good, so I lived with it and bought a 9 Pro, which was about the same or worse. I Apex'ed the trigger and barrel to the tune of another $300 and now it's great, but I have over $850 into it. A friend let me try his $550 PPQ m2, 9 and it was giving me 2 inch groups at 25 yards (off a rest of course). I immediately traded in my Compact for a Walther PPS M2, which will shoot 3 inch or less groups at 25 yards. If I can ever recover my money for the Pro, I'll get a Walther PPQ.
All the above was tried with several brands and weights of ammo, with American Eagle 147 grain being the best in all guns tested.
TacticalReload
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I hear ya. It's the reason I didn't bother sending mine back to S&W. For me, it was either get it running right or sell it. I've read so many stories online that are just like yours. Either they say the gun is in spec and don't touch it or they swap out the barrel and it MAYBE gets a little better but still not good enough. So I just chose to bite the bullet and spend the money for the Apex barrel. As you can see from the pics, it completely changed the accuracy of the gun. As an FYI, the factory barrel has the new 1:10 twist rate.
That doesn't sell specialty barrels!
M&P states the expected accuracy in their users manual. If that's not good enough, buy an Apex trigger and barrel. Myself, I have a LOT of work to do before I get to that point.
If somebody wants to improve a production car, that's their business.
Even if it's a Yugo, if somebody wants to improve it, it's their business.
If you tell me that it isn't worthwhile, I'll take that into consideration but it may not change my mind.
While I agree with you, I will take it a step further and say that, for me, it was an absolute necessity and not merely a luxury item or something to improve on "acceptable combat accuracy". I wasn't merely trying to "improve" it. I was trying to get it to an acceptable level of performance that ANYONE should expect from any gun that doesn't have Bryco or Jennings stamped on the slide.
Once again, I'll reference my before and after photos. For a brand new, recently manufactured $700 Performance Center gun to be shooting 10" groups at 20 yards is about as much of a joke as you can get. I'm sure that most newbies wouldn't even be able to tell that this is a problem because, as a novice, perhaps this is an acceptable grouping. That is probably how S&W has gotten away with shipping out these lemons.
As for the trigger, I kept the factory sear (Pro / PC sear) and simply cleaned it up a little. The PC models come with a much better striker block safety plunger so I just polished it a little. They also come with an over-travel screw built in. I swapped in the Apex springs and called it a day. I don't HATE the hinged trigger as much as a lot of people do... while I wish it wasn't there, I actually like it better than the Glock factory safety bladed triggers. I know this is a ultimately a plastic striker gun so I don't expect it to have a custom 1911 type trigger on it. I've spent too much money already to drop another couple hundred into the FSS & trigger kit from Apex, and the returns I would see from the performance in the gun aren't worth it to me.
I previously owned a 9c. It shot fine. I also have a buddy with an early production 4.25" 9mm, and it also shoots fine. I have another friend with a 5" Pro 9mm... and I would say that it's just okay, but it's "acceptably okay" -- meaning I wouldn't spend $200 to shrink the groups from 4" to under 2". The money I spent on mine shrunk groups from 10" to under 2" so that's a completely different cost-benefit ratio.
It kills me that I now have $900 tied into a plastic striker gun so I completely understand. I should have just bought another SIG... for a couple hundred more I could have gotten a Legion or Elite model. But my options when I discovered it wouldn't group were to either (1) have a $700 paperweight or (2) throw about $150-200 down the toilet in lost value selling it -- not to mention passing the problem on to someone else. The former wasn't even a consideration, and if I was going to lose $200 on the gun I might as well put that $200 into the gun to get it to run and end up with a nice pistol at the end. Sure, if I ever sell it, I will end up getting hosed; but that's just more reason for me to get out and shoot it I guess.
RICKENBACKER53
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Apparently the M&P 40 doesn't have the same issue as the 9? I have a M&P 40 that I purchased when they first came out. I bought the 40 because the Smith & Wesson rep at Shot told me the M&P was built around the 40 Smith :
I am a steel shooter so usually don't bother much with paper unless I am sighting something in.
I just ordered a 5" Core in 40 with the RMR SLide cut : Since I don't see Apex carrying the 40 Smith in their barrels should I assume 40 Smith is GTG in this gun?
I am a steel shooter so usually don't bother much with paper unless I am sighting something in.
I just ordered a 5" Core in 40 with the RMR SLide cut : Since I don't see Apex carrying the 40 Smith in their barrels should I assume 40 Smith is GTG in this gun?
Srruger762
Member
TacticalReload
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They don't have a 40 barrel yet because there are far fewer people complaining about poor accuracy with the 40 and especially the 45. However, in a fairly thorough online search, I did find a not so inconsequential number of people who complained of less than stellar accuracy with their 40s -- not nearly as badly inaccurate as some of the people's 9s, though (mine included). Hopefully you won't have a problem -- odds are better that you won't. I'm thinking that if the 9mm barrels are a run away success, they probably will come out with other calibers if they see a market for them. Randy implied that threaded 9mm and .40-to-9mm conversions will come first. One thing I see with their stuff is that they seem to really test the products thoroughly before releasing, even if it means it takes a while to get it to market. I appreciate that (despite the fact that I'm impatient).
Earlier in this thread, Randy makes mention of "torque stabilization" of the barrel with .40 and .45 guns. While I don't know what that means exactly, I can guess based on what it sounds like... something to the effect of torsional forces on the barrel keeping it more firmly contacting the slide either by stretching or rotating or both. Perhaps he can better explain.
My M&P manual....
I can't figure what all of the hullabaloo is about. The accuracy expectations are spelled out in the manual and states that that's the WORST accuracy you should get.
This is out of my Shield manual.....
-------------------------
The certification below is required only for handguns sold in the
United States with a barrel length shorter than 3”.
Smith & Wesson Corp. hereby certifies average accuracy test results for all new handguns with a barrel shorter than 3” as follows:
7 yards 14 yards 21 yards
1.7” 3.9” 6.3”
This certification is based on tests conducted by Smith & Wesson
Corp. using a fixed handgun, rest and firing ammunition manufactured by a member of the Shooting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) as defined in ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-
1993.
This certification represents actual tests based on several handguns, selected at random. Your particular handgun may have accuracy
better than the results stated in this certification.
---------------
If you want more than that, do some modifications. When I shoot targets I only make a bullseye every now and then. But when my groups can be covered with a saucer at 5 yards and a plate at 7 yards , I feel good as I'm only looking for defense accuracy.
For that I'll shoot my 686.
I can't figure what all of the hullabaloo is about. The accuracy expectations are spelled out in the manual and states that that's the WORST accuracy you should get.
This is out of my Shield manual.....
-------------------------
The certification below is required only for handguns sold in the
United States with a barrel length shorter than 3”.
Smith & Wesson Corp. hereby certifies average accuracy test results for all new handguns with a barrel shorter than 3” as follows:
7 yards 14 yards 21 yards
1.7” 3.9” 6.3”
This certification is based on tests conducted by Smith & Wesson
Corp. using a fixed handgun, rest and firing ammunition manufactured by a member of the Shooting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) as defined in ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-
1993.
This certification represents actual tests based on several handguns, selected at random. Your particular handgun may have accuracy
better than the results stated in this certification.
---------------
If you want more than that, do some modifications. When I shoot targets I only make a bullseye every now and then. But when my groups can be covered with a saucer at 5 yards and a plate at 7 yards , I feel good as I'm only looking for defense accuracy.
For that I'll shoot my 686.
Rickenbacker53,
I've got a 4.25" Pro CORE in .40 S&W and not had the severe issue that one poster had on his 9mm of would not group better than 10" at 25 yards. With my better ammo, my .40 will group < 10" at 50 yards, and the couple of best less than 8" at 50 yards.
Without much judgement, because it will be more than good enough for some and not nearly good enough for others, below is a lot of real data with multiple ammos, but from a database of just one, my gun. This is with a Trijicon RMR 06 installed/used, at 25 yards, and off a of bag rest. All of the FMJ data is with factory trigger. The SD ammo data was after I installed an APEX flat trigger (but with spring selection, left it ~ 4.5 # trigger pull), which minimized the chance of pulling shots. All shots were included.
Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr - 3 x 5 shot average group size = 2.7" (best ever 2.2")
Federal HST 180 grain - 2 x 5 shot average = 4.15"
Hornady Custom 180 grain XTP - 4 x 5 shot average = 4.7"
Rem Golden Saber 165 and Fed HST 165 only 1 x 5 shot both = 4.2" (but later groups opened up)
Fed American Eagle 180 grain FMJ's 2 x 10 shot = 4.4" , 1 x 5 = 3"
Fed Champion 180 grain FMJ's 1 x 10 shot =3.9", 1 x 5 = 3.3"
So for SD, for all except one specific ammo, my 4.25" Pro CORE .40 with a red dot is a 4-5" group size gun at 25 yards. And for 2 of the best range ammo's I found for this gun, it is a 3-3 1/2" gun for 5 shots at 25 yards.
This is fair to good, meets basic needs, but not excellent. Since I sometimes take it hunting, I'd be much happier if it grouped a wider variety of the hollow points 3" or less.
(Edit to add: I said I did not call flyers and won't ... the shots felt good for the included data. But this gun/sight combo I did group 4 of the 5 shots (or 8 of 10) w/in 2-3" consistently across ammos, mostly 2.1-2.7". Checked for patterns but did not see any ... no first shot or last shot being the one consistently off. When I'd get the first group like that, I'd think it was just me, or a variation in the round ... hence the repetitive groups. Nope ... just 20% random shot for every group, apparently from the gun, since it is across all ammos, that generates 25-50% of the group size.)
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TacticalReload
Member
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- Messages
- 287
- Reaction score
- 175
I can't figure what all of the hullabaloo is about. The accuracy expectations are spelled out in the manual and states that that's the WORST accuracy you should get.
This is out of my Shield manual.....
-------------------------
The certification below is required only for handguns sold in the
United States with a barrel length shorter than 3”.
Smith & Wesson Corp. hereby certifies average accuracy test results for all new handguns with a barrel shorter than 3” as follows:
7 yards 14 yards 21 yards
1.7” 3.9” 6.3”
This certification is based on tests conducted by Smith & Wesson
Corp. using a fixed handgun, rest and firing ammunition manufactured by a member of the Shooting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) as defined in ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-
1993.
This certification represents actual tests based on several handguns, selected at random. Your particular handgun may have accuracy
better than the results stated in this certification.
---------------
If you want more than that, do some modifications. When I shoot targets I only make a bullseye every now and then. But when my groups can be covered with a saucer at 5 yards and a plate at 7 yards , I feel good as I'm only looking for defense accuracy.
For that I'll shoot my 686.
First of all, your 686 owners manual should say the exact same thing. If your gun was shooting 8" groups from a rest at 25 yards, would that be okay with you?
Secondly, this is for <3" bbls. Our conversations have been pertaining to 4.25" and 5" guns. There are plenty of examples of short-barreled Shields that are outshooting the full-sized guns.
Third, that is just a CYA disclaimer required by law and placed in the section of the manual with the rest of the lawyer-ese warnings. I have seen on more than one occasion where S&W CS has told posters that they expect 3" groups from FS guns.
Lastly, if you look at the pics I posted of groups with the factory barrel, the "hullabaloo" is that my full sized gun can't even hold the groups in the "worst case for guns with under 3" barrels" in the manual. Depending on the ammo, it's not even close.
I'm not even close to happy with groups at 7 yards that can merely be covered with a plate, as you say. I think that's part of the reason why there are so many people in these threads making excuses for S&W... because good enough is good enough... and everyone's definition of what is good enough plus everyone's skill with a pistol is different. A $700 performance center gun with a $600 red dot optic that shoots dinner plate sized groups at 7 yards is an abject failure, IMO.
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I'm in total agreement. Smith and that Wesson guy should start producing guns from the factory that you don't have to "doctor up" just to be a reasonable shooter. Kind of sad that (some) American manufacturers are going with the, "that's good enough, lets get it into production" attitude.
I can't figure what all of the hullabaloo is about. The accuracy expectations are spelled out in the manual and states that that's the WORST accuracy you should get.
This is out of my Shield manual.....
-------------------------
The certification below is required only for handguns sold in the
United States with a barrel length shorter than 3”.
Smith & Wesson Corp. hereby certifies average accuracy test results for all new handguns with a barrel shorter than 3” as follows:
7 yards 14 yards 21 yards
1.7” 3.9” 6.3”
This certification is based on tests conducted by Smith & Wesson
Corp. using a fixed handgun, rest and firing ammunition manufactured by a member of the Shooting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) as defined in ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-
1993.
This certification represents actual tests based on several handguns, selected at random. Your particular handgun may have accuracy
better than the results stated in this certification.
---------------
If you want more than that, do some modifications. When I shoot targets I only make a bullseye every now and then. But when my groups can be covered with a saucer at 5 yards and a plate at 7 yards , I feel good as I'm only looking for defense accuracy.
For that I'll shoot my 686.
If this is an indication of the type of product S&W wants to hang their hat on, then all aboard the "8th or 9th best modern poly 9mm in production" train.
I myself will take a cab...
Srruger762
Member
I have a sig p938 that cost me more than any S&W pistol, I love the gun but hate to shoot it. Any thing past 10 yards your lucky to hit the target. At 10 yard it shoots 6-8" groups at 5 yards it shoots 4-6" groups. For self defense you better be close or your screwed.
Before I bought my S&W 9L I wanted a 1911 or a custom 1911 (SDI)But I figured with the cost of the S&W pistol and all the after market items I have built it with I'm still money ahead and have one bad a-- pistol. Trying the apex barrel tomarrow with the way it fits I'm really excited. it will out perform a lot pistol that cost more than what I have total cost into mine.
Hex I have a few friends with $1000-1400 1911s I'll out shout them with my stock barrel at 25 yards. Any thing closer watch out.
Results coming tommorrow. Going to try it at 50 yard too.
Before I bought my S&W 9L I wanted a 1911 or a custom 1911 (SDI)But I figured with the cost of the S&W pistol and all the after market items I have built it with I'm still money ahead and have one bad a-- pistol. Trying the apex barrel tomarrow with the way it fits I'm really excited. it will out perform a lot pistol that cost more than what I have total cost into mine.
Hex I have a few friends with $1000-1400 1911s I'll out shout them with my stock barrel at 25 yards. Any thing closer watch out.
Results coming tommorrow. Going to try it at 50 yard too.
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guidedfishing
US Veteran
For argument sake lets say the M&P 9 averages a 5 in group at 25 yards. Now lets say you are shooting at the 18 yard, 10 in plates on the steel challenge stages of Pendulum or 5 to Go. If you are not keeping your POA within a 4in circle you are going to start missing plates. Not leaving yourself any room for error that's a given.
It took an incredible amount of tinkering with bullet weights and loads to just get an acceptable group out of my pro series 5in guns.
My 5in M&P9 pro series shoot an inch tighter with any load than my 5in M&P9 core ported.
For my open gun I switched to a CZ, any load I put in it from 115 to 147 shoots under 1.5in at 25 yards from a rest. 124's hold 1 in groups. No tinkering with bullet weights, powder charges etc.
The CORE is going, and I really don't care if I take a loss on it. The regular 5in pro series is staying in the stable.
I will tell you all day long how nice the M&P fits my hand I love it. But I am done chasing accuracy in the CORE ported, its gone. and I am not spending money on a fitted barrel to get acceptable accuracy when i can get excellent accuracy out of the box with the CZ.
I am sure there are some M&P's that shoot lights out, my experience with the two pro series is accuracy is good to ok..kind of.
And the BS about combat accuracy, that is just a nice way to say you have settled for less.
good luck
It took an incredible amount of tinkering with bullet weights and loads to just get an acceptable group out of my pro series 5in guns.
My 5in M&P9 pro series shoot an inch tighter with any load than my 5in M&P9 core ported.
For my open gun I switched to a CZ, any load I put in it from 115 to 147 shoots under 1.5in at 25 yards from a rest. 124's hold 1 in groups. No tinkering with bullet weights, powder charges etc.
The CORE is going, and I really don't care if I take a loss on it. The regular 5in pro series is staying in the stable.
I will tell you all day long how nice the M&P fits my hand I love it. But I am done chasing accuracy in the CORE ported, its gone. and I am not spending money on a fitted barrel to get acceptable accuracy when i can get excellent accuracy out of the box with the CZ.
I am sure there are some M&P's that shoot lights out, my experience with the two pro series is accuracy is good to ok..kind of.
And the BS about combat accuracy, that is just a nice way to say you have settled for less.
good luck
