How I broke the curse of side by side doubles.

[model70hunter]

According to Greek mythology there were sirens that lured sailors into the rocky coastline of their island with their beauty and music that reached ones soul. Listening to them placed one in a curse. If one has lived this it became a Greek tragedy scribed by Homer or one of his peers.

At least I hope I escaped the curse. I was doing well until Bill Bates started showing some beautiful guns. Then a few others chimed in with some more wonderful doubles. Oh how the sirens sang and smiled, but I turned my head. Thank god for partial deafness from years of no ear plugs.

Ok, Ok I'll hold my breath and they will go away. The curse of the double is all consuming once it latches on to all your faculties.

I was content to play with my handguns, my rifles and my pump and auto shotguns.

Lately I've been staying up too late, stepping out the door to smoke another Marlboro gold and sip some Disaronno and think about all the doubles I loved and how I fell into that pit.

I grew up on the Ozark Mtn plateau. Sturdy farm folks, a few quail hunters and lots of pump, or auto or single shot shotguns. Nothing fancy. Not many farmers here bought American doubles, if you saw one it was an LC Smith farmers gun. It was a large frame heavy gun, sturdy enough to drive fence posts. It was not a game gun, no, no it was a meat gun and hung on nails over the kitchen door or sat in a closet.

I'd read of Parkers, Ithacas and AH Fox of Philadelphia. Names in a book. My father was a well read man with a college degree, he was an engineer. He was not from the Ozarks, my mother was from here. Dad met her in WW 2 and returned to work for the DOD US Army as a civilian engineer.

Dad was from NW Iowa, he hunted ducks and Pheasants.
My mothers folks were farmers. Her Dad owned 800 acres he and the oldest son farmed it. Grandpa fished some, noodled catfish and trapped. He had a single shot 22 and a single shot 12 gauge, his sons learned with them. the 22 did more hog and beef slaughtering than anything else.

Once when they were cutting a yearling stallion that panicked broke free jumped the barnyard fence and while running up the fence line across the road he hit a culvert and broke a leg, I was about 5 or 6, I always tagged after Grandpa, Dad and my uncles to observe manly things. The horse was down and couldn't get up, it lay there struggling screaming, the uncle that owned him was upset, i was in some kind of kid mortification, shock in a surreal world. Dad nor I followed them, Grandpa told the youngest uncle to run in the house and grab the 22 after they looked at the horse.

I saw Grandpa take the 22 and turn to the horse. I turned my head and very quickly heard the shot and the horses screaming stop. I looked back at Grandpa, he was walking away, no emotion. One uncle later pulled it away with his tractor.

That described farm folk, no need for a fancy or even a stout double meat gun.

My uncles gravitated to Model 12's or 870 pumps. Good for rabbit hunting.

Dad went thru a Browning sweet 16 but he told me the wonders of a double gun. He subscribed to Outdoor Life and bought Gun Digest and the Stogers book yearly. I glimpsed in and saw the doubles he looked at.

One day Dad came home with a Stevens 311 double in 16. He was in heaven. He was an excellent shot, his quail hunting buddies all had pumps except one Browning Auto 5 guy.

As a preteen I was now a double man. I killed one turkey, tons of squirrels, rabbits some ducks and a few feeble Doves with that 16.
I did not know it but I was wielding a great meat gun, heavy and stout.

When I left home I bought a few cheap pumps, and started a love affair with the Win M-12.

I like to read, I read every thing guns or hunting themed I could get my hands on. I read that post WW 2 saw the death knell for doubles. They sat unwanted on LGS shelves. LGS' would not give squat for trade in on the gun everyone wanted, an auto shotgun.

I found an old Remington double 12, I shot it some and liked it. another meat gun.

As my job grew I found a little extra gun money and bought many rough guns, fixed them up and took that money to buy more fixer uppers and a few nice guns. My life is great, Pre 64 model 70's, M 12's and a few handguns.

My job moved me, I left an area that had 2 pawnshop's that sold guns. Standard meat guns, nothing special. I never bought my 1st pre 64 M 70 until I moved and started seeing them on racks.

I drove to every little LGS I could in the Kansas City area. It was a new world. I started seeing guns I had read about, Parkers, AH Foxes and a few Winchester Model 21's I wasn't smart enough to buy. Some had years of dust on them.

I ended up buying 6 Parkers and 5 AH Foxes, I doubt I had $200 each in all except a broken Parker A grade and I traded my Ithaca Mag 10 for it. Here you see the curse working, I didn't, who trades a nice working gun for a broken one?

The weak link in a Parker is the little part that is called a stirrup I believe, that assists in opening the gun when you push the lever over. The owner in frustration on not being able to open the gun put it on his knee and forced it. He broke and splintered the stock at the wrist. Scott the gunman turned the Parker upside down and jiggled it as he pushed the lever, it opened, he had a part and in a week I had an A grade Parker minus a stock. I was going thru Warsaw, Mo and stopped at Fajens. I had bought quite a few stocks from them, Fred Winnig said I have a stock that will fit this gun, we weaved thru the old warehouse, it looked like a setup for hens to lay eggs. We finally stopped and he pulled out a AAA piece of wood. He said we made this for a guy years ago, he paid part up front and never answered our letters. He let me have it like a plain jane hunk of walnut.

I inlet it and finished it. I had Errol Case checker it and I was in the A grade business. I could bird hunt with my Parker or AH Fox 16's. All my Pumps disappeared. I was into it. Then I found 2 more Winchester 23's, a 12 and a 20. I did not use them.

I am flying along never once realizing I am in full curse.

I went to Tulsa and came home with a Westley Richards 12 gauge. I was very close to buying an H&H 12 ga Badminton. The guy packed up early and left.

The curse does things to you. I started looking at things like English made Oil skin hunting coats.

I believe it was W&C Scott but could have been WM. Evans who were advertising a box lock GAME gun for under 2K.
By now I knew the difference between a meat gun and a game gun. I'm in, I'll see your bet and raise you a little of my brain and soul.

I sent a letter off to England requesting a catalog. Must have been about this time of year as I invited them on a Turkey hunt if they happened to be here. I received a stiff upper lip British letter. It was entirely serious business on their part.
I still have the letter in storage. They replied if they ever came to the colonies it would not be to hunt Turkeys. There was more but that one sticks out. I took it to the LGS hangout. Guys would read it and inquire are they serious? Or just bust out laughing. Funny as it was it was an omen of things to come. I had just felt the first glimmer of recognizing the curse.

We started shooting sporting clays, I'd take a SxS double and have fun. Did pretty well. Then one day I awoke fully realizing I had been cursed, an actual Ju-Ju doll from the depths of a deep and dark back alley in New Orleans. I put them in the back of the safe, I got an official Sporting Clays Over and Under. A Browning.

I broke the double curse, I was flying high, no double curse. As I was scooting along looking over my shoulder at the double curse dimming I flew eyes wide open blindly into the curse of Sporting Clays. Did not know it.

For years my marriage had been over, we did not like each other and had not divorced for the kids sake. Finally the kids came to me as a group and demanded we all get a divorce from her. I could handle the divorce lawyer financially but suddenly she now wanted the kids. They wanted me and no one else. But a pure divorce lawyer finds ways to skin a cursed man. I sold all the doubles. Paid for the child custody fight and won. My $150 guns had climbed to $800 and more. It was worth it. The curse is gone, dead and over. Water was thrown on the ex and she melted away.

Then along came Bill... It is a succubus who drains you, a Count Vlad who takes your blood so beware when you hold beauty in your hands there is a price to pay if one listens to or looks at the sirens.

Duane.

 

[italiansport]

As a long time committed double owner I'll add to your curse. This is an AyA Grade 2 in both 20 and 28 gauges factory cased. It is a hand detachable sidelock with single selective trigger,ejectors and beavertail forend that was built in the 70s. It handles like a dream and is just about a perfect Quail gun for hunting in the Southwest. Single selective triggers and beavertail foreands are out of style with the double gun "purists" at this time but I would change any features on this one.
Jim

 

[Dennis]

mod70,
That was a damned fine read...

 

[raljr1]

Well spoken.....picked up a touch of the curse, but being a poor working fool, the doubles I bought were bargains..a Hunter Special, a Simson Suhl, and a LC Smith in pieces that i had to get put back together.......I dont shoot them as well as I might because I need about 3-1/4" drop at the heel to fit properly...no matter. I'd rather shoot a SxS on clays and miss than hit with a semi....they make me feel like, just maybe, I'm a gentleman from a time past....

 

[stu1ritter]

Never had the curse but sure loved reading about it.

Stu

 

[JohnRippert]

I just want a set of H&H side by sides, one in 20ga and one in .303 Brit. Oh, and I want someone else to pay for them. That's all.


Go to Youtube and lookup "Holland and Holland Factory Craftsmanship". I made the mistake of watching it earlier this year and got the itch. Thankfully(sniff, cry) I do not have the money to indulge.

 

[clang444]

When I first started getting into gun shows around 1990 or so, it was double barrel shotguns that I was most interested in. I lived in NJ, so handgun purchases were a pain in the butt. Not much use for rifles either because it is shotgun only hunting in NJ. Besides, I am left handed so that knocks out most the bolt guns anyway.

But the doubles you would see at the PA gun shows, American doubles from AH fox, LC Smith, Parker, Ithaca (NIDs), Lefever, Baker, and Remington. Imported guns like Francotte, Beretta, Rizzini (Abercrombien & Fitch guns), Sauer, Bernadelli, and others.

SxSs were still out of favor, so prices were still depressed. I don't know how many guns I bought, tinkered with and sold, but I still managed to hold on to a few of them, including a few Remington 1894s, which are my favorites.

I moved to the Midwest about 15 years ago, and boy have pickens been slim. Definitely not double country around here, and now that prices have skyrocketed, I probably have bought my last classic double.

The hardware store grade guns are still affordable around here though. Paid $200 for a like new Wards Western Field Deluxe 16ga made by Savage just before WWII. Also picked up a 1951 Savage Fox Model B in .410 for a very reasonable price. These guns are less refined than the classic doubles, but they are tough and the older ones have decent balance and the walnut on them is not too bad.

 

[Bill Bates]

Duane, it is time to indulge yourself again. You know you deserve it.

The side by side market is softer than it has been in years, especially 12 gauge guns. There are lots of fine double collecting dust on dealers shelves.

You know there is something special about taking a cock pheasant or doubling on quail with a fine gun. Slip a little it; won't hurt one bit. There are way to many plastic fantastic, camo covered auto shuckers cluttering up our fields. We need those young ones to learn by example how a gentleman takes game.

Of course forgive me. I shoot porn, of one sort or another, for a living. Here is a little gun porn to tempted you.

 

[H Richard]

I have some friends that are so "cursed". I get in on their conversations about makes, models, gauges, weight, balance, fit, etc. They each have quite a few, one is an L C Smith advocate, the other loves multiple makes, including several Damascus barreled guns. They each have at least one gun being "restored" at the present. It did rub off some, as I recently bought (not an old one) but a classic double, English straight grip, double trigger, Ugartechea choked I/C & I/M. I've shot a couple rounds of skeet with it, and other than the @#$@% automatic safety, I'm getting along pretty well with it. Unfortunately I feel the "pull" of the curse.

 

[model70hunter]

Duane, it is time to indulge yourself again. You know you deserve it.

The side by side market is softer than it has been in years, especially 12 gauge guns. There are lots of fine double collecting dust on dealers shelves.

You know there is something special about taking a cock pheasant or doubling on quail with a fine gun. Slip a little it; won't hurt one bit. There are way to many plastic fantastic, camo covered auto shuckers cluttering up our fields. We need those young ones to learn by example how a gentleman takes game.

Of course forgive me. I shoot porn, of one sort or another, for a living. Here is a little gun porn to tempted you.

Bill I did lots of Pheasant hunting in North Mo and in KS. There is a warm feeling when hunting with doubles. I loved to see them fold with my home loads. I should have kept my 1st Parker. IT was a VH on a 1 1/2 frame. Ic/Mod. It worked very well on quail also. Some one had replaced the wood with A+ grade walnut. This was the one that opened the door for me.

I should have kept the Parker 16 on an O frame and the 2 bbl AH fox A grade in 16.

I walked many miles with these 3. I originally thought the Parker was possibly the best shotgun made in the US. After I started buying AH Philadelphia Foxes I came to believe it was more solid and durable. I never found a higher grade LC and a few other brands. Most LC's I saw were the cheaper grades and heavy. More of a Rabbit/Duck or heavy duty gun than a light and lively game gun. Every old Ithaca I found was used and abused or a fuller choke gun that had been shortened for birds.

Nice pics Bill, thanks for verifying the curse by adding a beautiful siren at the end. Told you so.

In actuality I have looked at some old 2 frame Parkers with full and fuller chokes, most had no finish, abused wood and were overpriced.

I went around and around with my favorite LGS on a nice VHE 20 in the O frame, 2 bbls and I could have had it for $1800 in the early 90's. I knew what he had in it and tried to double his money by offering $1500. He took it to Tulsa and in third year sold it for $2500. It was 99.99999% like new, I don't think it had ever been hunted with.

In one of my old posts I told about driving from KC, Mo to central Mo in an ice storm to buy a Parker in .410. A woman inherited it from her father, her brother inherited a Parker 20 gauge. The son did not hunt, ran bars and was known as a drunk. The daughter was a good person. I did not want to call right after their Dad passed and waited a while, the son sold his almost immediately and drank the money. The Daughter ended up going thru a divorce and told my uncle to have me call her, she'd sell. It was a white knuckle drive. I stopped by and picked up my Dad. I went into her house talked a little and she said let me get the gun. Only a true Double person who loved Parkers could understand how my heart was racing and I had butterflies just like before my college football games.

My heart dropped to the bottom of my ribs when I watched her pull it out. It was a Stevens 410. Her uncle, another drunk lowlife per my uncle had been holding it for her. He gave her the Stevens and she did not know the difference. I had taken enough cash to make it a fair buy for both of us. I wasn't gong to skin her.

I could see the apprehension, she really didn't want to sell it, it was all she had of her Dad. I looked it over slowly, I showed no emotion, I finally told her I can't do it, I feel she doesn't want to sell her Dad's gun, she said she didn't. I thanked her and left.

I was livid, I would have kicked her uncles tail in front of the High Sheriff. The low life cheated her of her Dad's inheritance and sold it.

My son and Dad said where's the gun? I told them. My son and I went hone the next day, what a change, I came full of expectation and went home mad at the ladies uncle.

The curse I put on her uncle was for him to wake up with a 150 pound rabid Pit Bull in his underwear.

 

[Bat99]

A great read!

I've got two, more or less identical, Remington SxS with external hammers. Best I can tell they were made just prior to 1900. They were as you described, 'meat guns' that belonged to my father and one of his brothers. They inherited them from, probably, their grandfather.

 

[Rpg]

You guys made me do a mental inventory of my double gun holdings.

A bunch of Parker 16's, more English game guns, Philly Foxes, a few LC Smiths and some more recent Japanese Ithicas. Many Damascus.

In the last few years, I sold all my over/unders. Never really liked them much (Remington 3200, Winchester 101 etc. ).

Now that I think about it, I've sold some lower grade Parker's as well.

Didn't realize how many I had left, and how disinclined I am to sell any of them until I read this thread.

(Oh, I might sell the Jeffrey Best Grade: stock is too long for me.)

You guys have convinced me to hang on to my meager double holdings.

 

[bigmoose]

OP: Great read....thanks.

Bill Bates: Great looking Fox...the shotgun is nice too.

 

[bigmoose]

I love doubles too

Check out these jugs...

From my hometown, no less.

 

[Bill Bates]

If I had driven a goodly ways expecting a .410 Parker and instead found a Stevens I would have been more than tad upset and disappointed. Of course my budget is such that I wouldn't likely be driving anywhere to buy a .410 Parker.

Been hunting with the model in the photo for 37 seasons. These days momma is much more likely to carry a camera than a gun but she is almost always along.

That Fox AE 20 gauge is one gun I struggle to shoot but she does fine. For one thing it is missing a trigger. It also has a wee bit more drop and not enough cast. I find I kill more birds with the second shot than first. I have to think about it when I shoot it.

 

[CptCurl]

I just want a set of H&H side by sides, one in 20ga and one in .303 Brit. Oh, and I want someone else to pay for them. That's all.


Go to Youtube and lookup "Holland and Holland Factory Craftsmanship". I made the mistake of watching it earlier this year and got the itch. Thankfully(sniff, cry) I do not have the money to indulge.

A Holland & Holland .303 is a very lovely item: http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...-holland-holland-303-hammer-double-rifle.html

I've not figured out how to shake the curse of double guns at all. Not to worry! Accept your fate. Indulge. A few of the cursed things: http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearms-knives-other-brands/251390-double-rifles-true-addiction.html

Curl

 

[Pig Hunter]

Gentlemen there is no curse, just acceptance of the fact that SXS guns follow the design of the Good Lord! Have you ever seen anyone with an eye above and below their nose? Or have you ever actually seen a cyclops? Shotguns should have two barrels side by side and two triggers. Two chokes and you can instantly choose the best choke or load with the pull of the correct trigger. That balance that feels good about a M-12 Winchester can be made even better with an appropriately balanced game gun. You will learn a 2 1/2 " shells can and will kill as well as a 3 1/2 " stick of dynamite. A nice SXS and a good pointing dog can make life about as good as it gets. Mark

 

[model70hunter]

Gentlemen there is no curse, just acceptance of the fact that SXS guns follow the design of the Good Lord! Have you ever seen anyone with an eye above and below their nose? Or have you ever actually seen a cyclops? Shotguns should have two barrels side by side and two triggers. Two chokes and you can instantly choose the best choke or load with the pull of the correct trigger. That balance that feels good about a M-12 Winchester can be made even better with an appropriately balanced game gun. You will learn a 2 1/2 " shells can and will kill as well as a 3 1/2 " stick of dynamite. A nice SXS and a good pointing dog can make life about as good as it gets. Mark

Hi Mark. My Dad's from NW Iowa, there is a little pheasant hunting there. One Uncle had a couple of farms, he raised corn, calves to 800 lbs an milked a big herd. In his spare time he shot all the Skeet and Trap he could using M-12's. He Pheasant hunted with a M-42 410 for the most part. Did right well.

I know all about doubles. I read and memorized an article from the early 90's on how to make 2.5" Shotshells. And read how it performed on game in other places not ruled by Win/Rem. When I saw the O-O H&H in Tulsa I was ready. I'm sure I would have kept that one.

Now I'm thinking conspiracy theory. You guys are stuck on this rocky island with some good looking sirens and are watching us get lured in or are you really wanting someone to save you?

How would you like to shoot a round of Sporting clays with a Win M-12 or perhaps a rusty Woodward O/U? Egad a Mossberg 500?

 

[model70hunter]

You guys made me do a mental inventory of my double gun holdings.

A bunch of Parker 16's, more English game guns, Philly Foxes, a few LC Smiths and some more recent Japanese Ithicas. Many Damascus.

In the last few years, I sold all my over/unders. Never really liked them much (Remington 3200, Winchester 101 etc. ).

Now that I think about it, I've sold some lower grade Parker's as well.

Didn't realize how many I had left, and how disinclined I am to sell any of them until I read this thread.

(Oh, I might sell the Jeffrey Best Grade: stock is too long for me.)

You guys have convinced me to hang on to my meager double holdings.

If the walk from the butt to the muzzle on that ole Jeffries is getting to be too much I can help you shorten the stock.

 

[model70hunter]

If I had driven a goodly ways expecting a .410 Parker and instead found a Stevens I would have been more than tad upset and disappointed. Of course my budget is such that I wouldn't likely be driving anywhere to buy a .410 Parker.

Been hunting with the model in the photo for 37 seasons. These days momma is much more likely to carry a camera than a gun but she is almost always along.

That Fox AE 20 gauge is one gun I struggle to shoot but she does fine. For one thing it is missing a trigger. It also has a wee bit more drop and not enough cast. I find I kill more birds with the second shot than first. I have to think about it when I shoot it.

Great looking dogs. I had a Llwellen that looked like the big dog in the middle except mine appeared to be smaller.

I used to think I could tell a Llwellen from a Setter by looks , not sure anymore.

My Dad had English setters. I trained some Brittany's a long time ago, they were good hunters but hyper. Some days one felt like he was standing next to the Mississippi River yelling WHOA!

I had an Elhew line pointer, she was just flat out good. She was with me in my double days.