How I broke the curse of side by side doubles.

[cmore]

I am looking for ammo to shoot in my doubles, including a
damascus parker 12 gh.
anyone where I can get reasonable priced shells?The only ones I
have found are upwards of $10-$15 per box. Is that normal?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Bill Bates]

I had a Llwellen that looked like the big dog in the middle except mine appeared to be smaller.

I used to think I could tell a Llwellen from a Setter by looks , not sure anymore.

All Llewellin setters are English Setters but not all English setters are Llewellins. The Llewellin line of English setters run a bit smaller and are very popular with the field trail guys. It hasn't been that many years since the American Field Sporting Dog Stud Book has been registering Llewellins as breed sperate from English Setters. If you breed a Llewellyn to a registered English Setter you can register the pups as English Setter but not a Llewellin.

My dogs are Ryman line English Setters. They are a slightly larger dog than most Llewellens. Most Llewellins run 35 to 50 pounds where Ryman type dogs run more like 40 to 65 lbs. In cover they tend to run a little slower and range a little less. They are great dog for a walking behind while hunting ruffed grouse.

 

[model70hunter]

I am looking for ammo to shoot in my doubles, including a
damascus parker 12 gh.
anyone where I can get reasonable priced shells?The only ones I
have found are upwards of $10-$15 per box. Is that normal?

Thanks for your time.

Does the Parker have 2.5" or 2.75" chambers?
What year Parker is it?
Have any proof marks on the barrels or water table?

I just looked on line, $10-15 is not normal. Normal 2.5"ers run $14-18 bucks a box.

How far out in KS cow country?

I still have a couple of boxes of Val Forgett's Navy brand black powder 2.75" #6 shot shells that I used to shoot Chukar with my damascus "A" grade Parker.

Google all you can on shooting smokeless powder in damascus. You can start by searching here on info by Bill Bates. I'll throw in a disclaimer for him, what he did worked well for him on his guns. See the part about some late 1800's guns being proofed with smokeless shells.

Do you reload shot shells or have a friend who does? Low pressure smokeless loads should work. Get everything crammed in the shell tight, it's the air gap between the powder/wad/shot that is dangerous.

When I first started loading shot shells I believed the reloading book to be right on. I was using doubles and pump shotguns. They killed very well, I bagged the largest turkey I've ever seen using one of my 7.5 loads in my Grandfathers old single shot White Powder Wonder and pheasant with my Parker VH. I ended up with an auto, the shells were too low powered to cycle it.

I have shot low brass smokeless shells in damascus guns. I still have 8 fingers, 2 thumbs and 2 eyes. But there are some ratty damascus old import side by's I've seen I would not have shot with any thing. On those my mind went back to my childhood where you'd drop a M-50 or cherry bomb in a campbells soup can and run. It usually split the can at the seam and that was my fear when looking at the old thin import damascus guns.

PM me if you go to KC once in a while let me know and I'll dig out the ammo. I'd also like to see the old Parker lady.

Duane.

 

[cmore]

Are you the gentleman I talked to about the forum at the last wichita gun show?

I live in Andover, a small town east of wichita, not so far out town anymore.

The parker is circa 1903, I'm not sure of the chamber length. Ive never
had any shells I thought I should shoot in it. Im pretty sure the bbls
are good, they ring like a bell, but don't know anyone who could check
it out. One gentleman I talked to about it says it is a bit loose, but could be
tightened up. It has no finish to speak of anymore, and someone put a recoil pad on it long ago.
Long enough that the rubber pad is hard as a rock.
I will try to get some pics posted.

Natchez has some 2 1/2 20 ga Federal and Kent brand shells for
$7.50 and $11 respectively, but both are out of stock of course.
https://www.natchezss.com/ammunition/shotgun-ammo.html#am_length=200387&dir=asc&order=position&p=2

Polywad has some Vintager shells for $100/case for 12,16, and 20.
Ever tried these?
Polywad - Shotgun Shell Developer and Manufacturer - (800) 998-0669

Rst has some 12 and 20 for $13.50 and $14.50
RSTShells

Are there any gunshows in KC area coming up? I used to get up there
once in a while when Jim Supica had his Old Town Station gunshop
but havent been in a while.

Thanks again for your time, I appreciate it.

 

[Bill Bates]

cmore,

I would expect the actual chamber length to measure 2 5/8 inches which was the spec. for 2 3/4 inch chambers prior to about WWII for most manufacturers including Parker. Most chambers will measure 1/8 inch short so 12 gauge 2 3/4 in guns will measure 2 5/8 and 20 gauge 2 1/2 inch guns will actually measure 2 3/8. They will have rather sharp and steep forcing cones. The idea being that the roll trip of a paper shells would give a good seal. With our modern plastic shell casings you will get a minor bump in pressure using a 2 3/4 inch shell in a gun with a 2 5/8 inch chamber length. If you have a 6 inch steel machinist ruler you can easily measure the length by feel.

Give your barrels a good looking over inside and out. The bores should be pit free. Some frosting of the bores isn't an issue for me but pits are a problem. If the bore is pitted then they need to honed until the pits are gone. That honing may take the barrel wall thickness to dangerously thin. What you see may be minor or maybe hiding a larger deeper pit. You don't know until your done with the honing.

Very minor dents can easily be raised by a good gun smith. Bulges are an issue and a deal killer.

If the barrels ring then very likely the ribs are solid. The next things to check on the barrels (beyond being dent, bulge and pit free) are the bore diameters and barrel wall thickness. This will requirer some proper tools. You measure the bore diameter nine inches from the breech. Your 12 gauge Parker should have a bore diameter of 0.732 in. plus of minus a few thousandth go of an inch. If the barrels have never been refinished and your close to the .732" you like have more than good wall thickness. if you find a bore diameter like .740" then the bores have been honed and I would certainly check the wall thickness. Any wall thickness under .017" is considered dangerous. I look for a minimum wall thickness over .020".

Now to the loose action mentioned. Leave the barrels on the gun but remove the fore end. Hold the barrels like a base ball bat and give it a side to side and up and down wiggle. If you can feel movement of the action and butt you have a problem. It may be a simple problem to fix and maybe not depending on how loose the action is and how off face the barrels are. Get some feeler gauges and see if you can close the action on a .003" gauge placed between the breech face and barrels. Sometimes if you have the fore end off if you old the gun above your head and look between the balls of the action and the breech end of the barrels you can see a sliver of light. If you can the barrels are off face. That is a real problem.

Replace the fore end. Many guns will tighten up with the fore end back on the gun. Keep the loads gentle and the hook and hinge pin properly clean and lubed and you may be fine for a time. Of course sooner or later the gun needs to go to a gunsmith and be brought back on face. If you just a little loose you may also be able to cut a little strip of thin shim stock (pop can may work) to place in the hinge face of the barrel hook and tighten it back up. It isn't proper fix but will get you by for a bit. You might even glue the shim in place. Again this is a stop gap measure and may not be the most safe answer.

As to shells I really prefer RST and Gamebore. They are a little pricey but when it comes right down to it how often are you going to be shooting your GH. RST will also allow a mixed flat.

I hope that helps.

 

[cmore]

Thank you very much. I will check it out. Do you know anyone who
works on these old fellas?
I am (was) a machinist and know it will take special eqip. to hone
something that small and long. and to check the bbl thickness.
thanks again.

 

[Bill Bates]

Cmore, you might ask that question over in the Parker Collectors Assoc. forum. They may know someone in your area.

Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums

 

[model70hunter]

Are you the gentleman I talked to about the forum at the last wichita gun show?

I live in Andover, a small town east of wichita, not so far out town anymore.

Hello cmore, I have not been to any gun shows in the Wichita area.

Our nephew went to college in Whichita, met a girl and was married in Andover after college. We went to the wedding, this was after the tornado rearranged things there.

Bill give some sage advice in his post. It has been 25 years since I owned any doubles. There was a good smith in Lake Lottawanna, MO, Scott the gunman who worked on 2 of my Parkers and fit a 2 nd set of barrels to a AH Fox 16 gauge. I googled and he is still listed.

While looking at gunsmiths in the KC area I found this site in Shawnee Mission, KS. Look at his before and after pics of some repairs. You will be amazed.

GunsmithingOnly

Another place for you to check is, Michael Murphy And Sons in Augusta, Kansas

I've been by their shop and shot sporting clays there. Call them, they handle very nice guns and may have a smith contact close to you. They are about 20 miles east of you.

 

[cmore]

Murphy's is actually pretty close. I will drop by there when I can
quit drooling over the guy in Mission.
Fabulous work. Thanks