A Brit-made six-gun that I love, the Enfield No. 2 MK I*

[Texas Star]

David-

The Enfield is certainly covered in that book, but you may be unhappy that Boothroyd said the S&W was much preferred by most troops who had the choice. The hard trigger pull of the Enfield was part of the problem, if not most. But most of the Enfields after 1938 had the DA-only trigger pull, just adding to the problem.

The DA-only trigger was due to complaints by tank crews that the hammer spur caught on things in the tanks. Instead of simply making the holsters deeper to hide the spur, they decided to eliminate the hammers!

The old claim in US ads that these were guns designed for speed shooting by elite Commando units is just hogwash. In fact, those units tended to issue Colt .45 autos and S&W .38's, or later, 9mm Brownings made in Canada. Some had "odder" guns, like Lt. MacHorton's Colt Official Police or Commando model .38. He was part of a special force designed to penerate behind Japanese lines and study the enemy and how small units could harass them.

You'll find that the Boothroyd book doesn't miss many handguns of any fame at all. By contrast, Elmer Keith wrote almost exclusively about US guns. But he covered that aspect so well that his, Sixguns is a virtual must for gun enthusiasts. His comments on ammunition, inc. handloads, is classic. About 70% of the pistol questions asked on gun boards can be answered by one or the other of those books. Both are dated, the revised Keith book dating from 1961. But they contain the basic handgun knowledge so vital to the beginner and the journeyman gun enthusiast.

 

[dabney]

Texas, thanks for the info. In the Stamps/Skennerton book that was mentioned regarding some Brits seeking our S&W or Colt OP to replace their Enfield. I will quote a short few sentences from the book on this;

MANY DISCRIMINATING SOLDIERS READILY ABANDONED THE DAO ENFIELD FOR COMMERCIAL QUALITY SMITH & WESSON OR COLT REVOLVERS AT THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY. ALTHOUGH SUCH REVOLVERS MAY HAVE BEEN FINER HANDGUNS THAN THE ENFIELD, WITH MORE DELICATE MECHANICAL FEATURES, IT WAS THE NATURE AND RELIABILITY OF THE ENFIELD WHICH WON THE HARD-EARNED RESPECT OF THE COMBAT SOLDIER TO WHOM DEPENDABILITY AND EASE OF MAINTENANCE REMAINED THE CRITERIA BY WHICH MANY SMALL ARMS WERE JUDGED.

Texas, even today, in the recent Desert Storm War, we had some of our US Military opting for 1911 .45's over the Beretta 92 9mm Pistol. If given the choice, during WW2, I too would have went for the S&W or Colt offerings over the Enfield. That being said, the DAO Enfield did serve with great honor and distinction in the War and for years after. Thanks again my friend for your thoughtful post. As always, appreciated so very much!

David

 

[les.b]

Texas Star:

Well, I'm following your advise yet again: just ordered a copy of Boothroyd's book. I'm not sure if you're familiar with "Abebooks", but I use them all the time to order books that are out of print. They are a consortium of independent booksellers from all over the world, so when you search for say Boothroyd, then you get all the books he has written and who all has them, and sorts them by price, and any other way you would like. I just ordered one at a very reasonable price, and am looking forward to getting it. I have had a copy of "Sixguns" for many years, and enjoy it immensely. I am also going to order a copy of the book that David recommended on Enfields, and another that I discovered on Webleys.

I only have the two handguns that I posted above, but you fellows have piqued my interest in learning more. I have been doing a lot of reading about WW II personalities, just finished the three volume Biography on Bernard Montgomery, and a number of other folks of that era, so I'm in the mood to read about some of the arms of the day as well.

I'll let you know when I get my copy, and have a chance to read it a little. I thought you might enjoy that film clip of Boothroyd with some of his firearms, can you imagine him in the U. K. With that setup today? It reminds me a little of Justice Scalia's story of traveling from Brooklyn to Manhattan on the subway with his rifle when he was in school and on the shooting team. Times sure change!

Best regards, Les

 

[Texas Star]

David-

I know that. Not only do I read extensively in that area, my son was among those lucky enough to use both Colt .45 auto and Beretta 9 mm's in Iraq. He killed some insurgents with both, and found the .45 a little more effective with a single hit, but the 9mm was quite effective, if well placed. He also used a 9mm Browning MK III after leaving the Army and returning as a security contractor. He actually had some of his worst firefights in that capacity.

Some SpecOps units still use the .45 auto ,like USMC Force Recon units. Delta Force may also have some. Colt has recently made up new modified .45's for the Marines. I think they also sell those on the commercial market. At last report, Delta Force "operators" were supplied with two heavily customized .45's, in case one was in need of maintainance when required for a mission.

I think those guys kill quite a few Jihadists without it ever making the news.

 

[Cyrano]

In the 1950s, a friend lived in Cambridge, MA with his widowed mother in a huge, three story house with a basement. They rented the top floor to graduate students at Harvard, but still the two of them rattled around in the big house. It was probably one of the safest places in the country, but she became frightened and asked him for a pistol for her bedside. He produced an Enfield Mk II*, and after emtying it, had her try it to see if she could manage the DAO pull. She could. He loaded it put it on her bedside table, and gave her the most precise instructions I've ever heard; "If you have to use it, pick up the pistol, point it at him and pull the trigger.

 

[Texas Star]

Les-

You may also want to Seach for books by John Masters, DSO.
Prewar India was covered in, "Bugles and a Tiger" and WWII was in, "The Road Past Mandalay".

After the war, Masters moved to the USA and became a bestselling author. But I think his best books are these, about his time as an officer in the 4th Ghurka Rifles, The Prince of Wales's Own. He reached the rank of Brevet Brigadier, and retired as a Lt. Col. He received the Distinguished Service Order (one step beneath the Victoria Cross) for his command of an outpost in Burma that was besieged by the Japanese.

A graduate of Sandhurst, he was an articulate author. He was also a talented artist, as shown by his sketches in the first book. The second is ill. with photos.

 

[dabney]

Texas, I also appreciate the MK IV Webley .380 very much and own two of the War Models. I have never come across a book, written specifically on this great firearm. The internet search engines are of no help. I already own the Osprey paperback book on the Webley Revolver that gives a little background on the WW2 Webley but not a lot. Do you know of a book on the MK IV specifically? If not, maybe we, with much help from our friends here could make-that-happen. What say you, fine sir?

David

 

[Texas Star]

David-

I know of no such book. I once saw a copy of, "The Webley Story", by Wm. Chipchase Dowell, but couldn't afford it then. It's hard to find in the USA. Probably Amazon or Abe books can get it. That's your best bet.

However, Boothroyd gave the MK IV pretty good coverage. If you buy that book, I think you're going to be amazed at the depth and scope of its coverage. For me to recommend something, it has to be good.

You forgot to mention the advantages the Enfield has over the MK IV Webley. The Enfield has a solid frame with an integral trigger guard. The Webley has a screw-on trigger guard, as with most Webleys. The rear of the trigger guard on the MK VI bears uncomfortably on my finger, so I prefer the Enfield in that regard.

Also, if memory serves, the Enfield has a removable sideplate, like a Colt or S&W. These were the changes made by the Army designer, partly in hopes, no doubt, of evading Webley 's patent. But they also made a better designed gun.

Enfields made prior to 1940 and many even after, are well made guns with good, if dull, finishes. The commercial Webley, with a nice blue finish, is a finer made gun, with domed screws, maybe. ?? Been awhile since I saw one. The flathead screws of the Enfield are less attractive, but it was designed to be a military weapon, and the culture was not very pro-gun, even then. Look at the checkering on the prewar Enfield grips and compare that to the checkering on Colt or S&W arms. Boothroyd told me in a letter years ago that the Enfield was a sound military weapon, but not as desirable to the serious gun enthusiast as were its rivals. And he agreed that it was underpowered, which carried over to Colt and S&W .38's chambered for the official .38/200 ctg., of course.

Winston Churchill was pretty gun savvy. I've seen pics of his own guns. When he formed the Commando regiments in 1940, he insisted that their primary sidearm be the Colt .45 auto, a gun that he himself owned and sometimes carried in the war , under his suit coat. He also tried to get his police bodyguard to carry one, but that man thought it was too big and heavy and preferred a Webley .32 auto, the usual cop gun then. Those .45's were NOT then Lend-Lease guns. Britain bought them from Colt. The Lend-Lease examples came later in the war.

If the Prime Minister didn't trust the low powered .38, neither did many soldiers, and they made every effort to get something better. I know of one RAF ace who wangled a Beretta .32 and another bummed a Luger from a friend who was an Intelligence officer, with access to pistols taken from downed German aircrews. He was eventually shot down over German-occupied Denmark and the Germans who captured him were not pleased to find the P-08 on him...

 

[les.b]

Texas Star:

You guys are a bad influence on me!!! Not so bad convincing me to buy books and DVDs, but now I want to get my hands on a nice Enfield, as well. I'll try to suppress the urge, but it would make a nice comparison, since I already have a couple of Webleys. Anyway, thanks for the education I'm getting about these neat revolvers. Boy, I wish that I'd kept that first one from my teens. It was one of the older ones from the forties, I presume. Oh, well, live and learn. I have been enjoying all the lore that you and David, and Cyrano and all the other posters have been putting up. I have a DVD of "The Guns of Navarone" somewhere, and I'm going to have to dig it up and watch it.

Best regards, Les

 

[dabney]

Texas, I too looked real hard at the book, "The Webley Story" and found the price tag beyond my reach. Would love to own it though and continue my education on this great firearm. The price tag is just too high for a book. A great book I'm sure, but a book.

Les, gunbroker has Enfields and Webleys and from time to time and good prices (from time to time). I've never went down that path before as in earlier times my Dad had an FFL and I took advantage and was able to pick up two of those pictured Enfields that way. I'm like you Les, the posts here has rekindled my appetite for the Enfield/Webley greats.

It is great to find friends of the Enfield residing here.

David

 

[dabney]

In the 1950s, a friend lived in Cambridge, MA with his widowed mother in a huge, three story house with a basement. They rented the top floor to graduate students at Harvard, but still the two of them rattled around in the big house. It was probably one of the safest places in the country, but she became frightened and asked him for a pistol for her bedside. He produced an Enfield Mk II*, and after emtying it, had her try it to see if she could manage the DAO pull. She could. He loaded it put it on her bedside table, and gave her the most precise instructions I've ever heard; "If you have to use it, pick up the pistol, point it at him and pull the trigger.

Mr. Cyrano, simple and to the point in regards to your last sentence sir. When one stops to reflect on that, I agree, sound, good advice! Those old Enfields have/still do, served as nightstand guns and simplicity of operation abounds with it. Thanks for your post!

David

 

[Texas Star]

What does a copy of, "The Webley Story" sell for these days?

I've never paid over $150 for a book. That was for a first edition of Jim Corbett's, "The Man-Eating Leopard of Rudraprayag." And I had a trade-in book.

Nonetheless, my teen daughter was surprised that books could cost that much. On the other hand, I was amazed at the prices that she cited for collectible Barbie dolls...

 

[dabney]

Texas, I balked at a "used" price of 400-dollars (Amazon, about a year ago). At the time this was the only area (Amazon) I could find any copy. I haven't checked lately and now is the time. I just can't see that high a price for the Webley Book. If I see any I will contact you on it. Our friend, Les, deals with ABLE and has good things to say about them.

Thanks Texas for your thoughtful, informative posts.

David

 

[policerevolvercollector]

I have several Webleys from police agencies all over the Empire. But, this is my only Enfield .... a WWII .38/200 carried by the Federation of Malaya Police:





I'll post this Webley MkIV .38/200 from the Singapore Police Force because I bought it from Mark Stamps who wrote the book referenced above about Enfield revolvers...




Best,
Charles

 

[Engineer1911]

British tradition: Warm beer, driving on the left hand side, Webley revolvers.

At least one works when the chips are down.

 

[les.b]

David and Texas Star:

Abebooks has several copies of "The Webley Story", by William Chipchase Dowell, starting at about $120.

The Webley Story - AbeBooks

There is a much lower priced, similarly named book: "The Webley Service Revolver", by Robert Maze, available from Amazon and othe sources starting at about $14.95 used. I have this one on order from Amazon, plus the book that David recommended on the Enfield.

Guys, I know that you, David are former law enforcement, and you Texas, have a son who has served abroad for our country, and thought you might want to comment on a completely unrelated topic. I started a thread today about a self defense shooting by an 80 year old man here in my town less than 24 hours ago. If you would, check it out at:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...defends-self-home-invasion.html#post139052241

Apologizing in advance, David for the thread drift!!!

 

[bmcgilvray]

Thanks for a great Webley thread, here on Smith & Wesson Forum. Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Webley are my favorite revolvers. No other brands need apply.

Only two Webleys live here. Both scruffy run-of-the-mill guns, an uncut "Boer War" Mark IV .455 and a World War II Mark IV .38/200. Both are fed "proper" handloads and both are loved.

 

[dabney]

Thanks for a great Webley thread, here on Smith & Wesson Forum. Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Webley are my favorite revolvers. No other brands need apply.

Only two Webleys live here. Both scruffy run-of-the-mill guns, an uncut "Boer War" Mark IV .455 and a World War II Mark IV .38/200. Both are fed "proper" handloads and both are loved.

Bryan, great photo in your post sir. Two "impressive" Brit subjects posing in front of all that great British literature. Thanks for showing us. Am very pleased to find you a friend of the Webley!

Policerevolvercollector, mighty fine set of Brit firearms in your collection sir, with lineage to former colonial interests of the Queen from both.

David

 

[Thuer]

I agree with Texas Star. I do own "The Handgun" , "Sixguns" and the two volumes about the Webley revolver by Gordon Bruce. There is a good deal of info in them. Aldo I wished that the Gordon books where more specifik on date's of manufacture. I do own several Webley's wich I would like to show you. Probbebly some are posted early on this great forum.

Did you know that the Germans did have a devise to make a snap on the rim of a 9mm on 2 or three sides to use them in captured Webly MK IV revolvers. Ofcourse the pressure of the 9 mm is a lot stronger then the .38/200 so this wrecked the Webley after several shots. The Germans did not care about that. The had plenty of captured Webley MK IV revolvers.

What James Bond conserns. I was a bit suprised that after he recieved his Walther PPK I did saw a FN model 10 on his night stand.

On the pictures You find a MK V in .455 also a comercial MK III. You can easely pich out this model due is fat hammer and very small cilinderslots.
A 1951 made Webley MK IV used by the Dutch Police after WW II a Colt Police wich was on the picture I found of the MK IV. Prideauxloader for the Webley Fosbery ( or any other Webley .455) And the Webley Fosbery from 1906. Missed the MK VI photo. Reminds me that I do have to make more and better pictures of my loved Webley revolver. Hope to buy more good stuffin the future.

 

[les.b]

Thuer: I just about fell through the floor!!! A Webley Fosbery!!! I don't know much about Webleys, but I know those are "scarcer than hen's teeth", if you will pardon an American idiom meaning "very rare"!!!!

You have some very nice Webleys there. Thank you for sharing with us.

I have been to your country five or six times, and love it there.