Jingles
Member
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I don't like the idea of those revolvers pointed right at Big Jim and the twins....
With the Continuing Nut Cases
- Thread starter bowzette
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I don't like the idea of those revolvers pointed right at Big Jim and the twins....
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
This is related to the original question, I guess. But I am not sure why you recommend 25 yard shooting. Unless I am up against a rifle at distance I don't imagine I will ever be in such a long distance gunfight. Not that I can't hit a B-27 target at 25 yards, I can, but who cares?
I can shoot nice, tight groups at normal gunfight distances and I'm confident I can hit a B27 target at 25 yards. Not to be argumentative but I wouldn't waste pistol ammo trying to hit targets at 100 yards with a 2" fighting revolver. Sure, it can be done, but you have to launch those rounds like you are almost aiming at the sky. I know from experience what it takes to hit a distance target with a 4 5/8 inch single action revolver (.45 Colt, 140 yards, one shot to show off, hit it, done and done) but you have to be rock steady and aim very HIGH
and it is really just for laughs and bragging rights. It's not a good plan for a gunfight.
it is definitely great for bragging rights, of course, but 75 feet is quite a ways away, never mind 300 feet or more, and it is unlikely in the extreme that I would ever find myself in such a situation. If I do then my antagonist is going to probably have a lofty perch, likely with good concealment, and a rifle, and I'm going to want concealment as much if not more than being able to exercise my 75 yard shooting prowess with a 2" combat revolver.
There is nothing wrong with having that skill and knowing what your combat revolver will do but to what purpose? There is virtually no chance that anyone will find themselves in that situation*. If you do then the interesting thing is that the antagonist is going to be pretty shocked at receiving return fire such that he might retreat or look for a different vantage point, thereby enabling your escape.
*The only time I can recall such a situation was last year's attack on Dallas police officers. The shooter did, indeed, have a lofty perch, and a rifle, and not a single police round hit him as I recall. He was killed with a remote robot bomb. All you can do with a handgun in that situation is send suppressing fire. Unless you are making a movie, of course.
Two or three other possible, similar scenarios:
*It is likely that the theater shooters in France in the not too distant past had 25 ore more yards between them and their victims but I do think they were in a balcony and, of course, no French person had a gun, anyway.
*The Colorado theater killer had a rifle, it was dark, and he was near the back of the theater. Same problems in re distance and the lack of guns in the audience.
My whole point being I won't be practicing combat shooting at 100 yards and my 25 yard shooting will be to verify my ability hit and then I'm done with that "skill".
I don't disagree that those are quality skills to have; I just view them as unnecessary in today's terrorized world. If you're going to stop an attack you will very likely be up close and personal.
Get caught out in the street, parking lot, or even a mall, and you may see the reasoning for being able to hit a target at 25 yards, especially if the shooter is armed with a rifle. The 100 yard shooting is not as important, but being able to suppress a shooter's target selection process could save lives. Here, a police officer was potentially saved by a citizen's long range handgun marksmanship: Citizen shoots trailer park gunman, saves Texas officer
If you don't think it is an important skill, don't practice it. Since I don't routinely carry a rifle or shotgun, I'm going to practice at long range as well.
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Gripgrabber
US Veteran
Hay, nice thread, I to like revolvers, I have several js, many Ks, several n'ssnubbys, and ended up with a LCR 38 a lot, recently got a CA bulldog 44spl. Started carrying it a lot with 2speedstrips. But I keep going back to a glock, got a 19&23. With a crossbreed and 2 full size spare mags it's comfortable and 40cal and don't feel under gunned with plenty of spare ammo.
Good luck
SEMPER PARATUS
Good luck
SEMPER PARATUS
Would you be standing still and returning fire or would you be moving? If you would be moving, do you practice shooting at targets 25 yards away while GOTX?
Considering the odds of needing to make long range shots with a pistol, I think very little training time should be devoted to it. If someone wants to practice it, so be it, but with training time and energy being limited, it's makes sense to me to allocate the majority of my time to working on skills that have a higher probability of being applicable in likely defense scenarios and keep the long range work to a minimum.
I totally agree with this concept. In the VERY unlikely event that one gets caught out in a parking lot and there is a shooter with a rifle the MOST important thing you can accomplish is suppressive fire. A rifleman who is ducking and weaving isn't shooting. The life you save may be your own.
I didn't say I can't hit at 25 yards or never practice it. If I had to anticipate that scenario and HAD to bring a handgun I'd carry my 6" M586 and I would hit my target. As that gun is not concealable I'm stuck, as Clint Smith says, with a compromise. But I CAN hit a target at distance; I'll do it a time or two at the range to be sure but, after that, I stick to the CQB practice as that is more likely.
But suppressive fire is a useful concept. One should not shirk a gunfight against a perp due to distance. We are sheepdogs, not sheep, and we train so we can fight - and survive.
ParadiseRoad
Member
...don't think you can carry a back up?...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTrXpDK_EYE[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTrXpDK_EYE[/ame]
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
I don't know if you're an LEO, or where you live; but for me I think if there is an active shooter situation more than a few yards away from me, or especially one that calls for barrier penetration, I almost certainly am not the one to resolve it. For one thing, if it's any distance away (like twenty-five yards, for example, seventy-five feet) I may not be entirely clear on just what the situation is and whether it involves a plainclothes cop. And for this elderly civilian, the odds against my encountering such a scene are astronomical.
I'm not and never have been a police officer. I have a cell phone and the ability to be a good witness and reporter. I carry a J-frame with which I'm quite content, though I've considered adding a Ruger LCP as a hip pocket backup.
I'm just an old player of the percentages who has a pretty clear view of his limitations in the hero business.
Using a handgun--any handgun--to deliberately engage a guy with a long gun is stupendously unwise. It's really only a defense when you have complete surprise on your side, and even then, the chances are not great.
There's a reason why law enforcement agencies spend thousands of dollars to put patrol rifles in cars.
Skeptic 9c
Member
There have been "protests" resulting in large crowds stopping cars and dragging the occupants out and killing them.
I have gone from a S&W M38, to a Kahr 9094N and I am moving to a SWaMPy 9c, fanny pack carry, left front, cross draw. Easily accessed while sitting. Hearing protection is in the console, several kinds.
13 plus 17 rounds in the second magazine means 30 rounds to discourage the attack.
Geoff
Who wants to know if S&W ever made a 33 round magazine for the SWaMPy?
I have gone from a S&W M38, to a Kahr 9094N and I am moving to a SWaMPy 9c, fanny pack carry, left front, cross draw. Easily accessed while sitting. Hearing protection is in the console, several kinds.
13 plus 17 rounds in the second magazine means 30 rounds to discourage the attack.
Geoff
Who wants to know if S&W ever made a 33 round magazine for the SWaMPy?
joeintexas
US Veteran
Not having seen too many self defense shots needing to be made at 100 yards. Not sure I would even know what I was shooting at that distance. I carry a Ruger SP101 .357mag, 2 1/4 in barrel. Not too heavy, easily concealable and accurate at what I would consider self defense distances. If I can't get at least one round out of 5 in the stop zone I really need more range time. Is it my favorite handgun, no, I truly enjoy shooting the 1911s but rarely carry them, so far, so good.
Recently in my quiet little town we have had two officers murdered, and several armed robberies as well as a young man murdered during an argument. This has really caused me to reevaluate my carry. While my knee jerk reaction was to really load up I have since calmed. Each of these incidents are the same type (minus the two officers being shot) that I have always know could be a threat. While the incidents are more frequent the players have remained the same. One to two guys all within close proximity.
DD357
Member
I have felt no need to change; snub K is fine for me.
I do a lot of traveling to various large cities and had similar concerns. My in-car weapon of choice is currently a S&W 642. It's immediately accessible in an open fanny pack on my lap.
Inside the confines of the car, I had concerns about the reliability of a semi-auto due to the slide not having room to freely reciprocate(making contact with your own body, the attackers or the steering wheel), the slide being pushed out of battery as well as malfunctions due to an ineffective one hand grip. A few in-car force-on-force scenario drills confirmed these concerns in my mind. These are simply not issues with an enclosed hammer revolver. The hammerless snub also offers the greatest weapon retention(especially if outfitted with larger grips) and will usually function reliably during an attempted disarm.
With that being said, even though likely enough for my purposes, 5 rounds isn't much and a Glock is usually close by although the primary use for it is bedside while in hotels.
It truly doesn't take much to foul the slide of an auto...
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4[/ame]
I used to EDC a J-frame. Now it's a .45 Shield.
Granted, this was on a range and targets don't shoot back, but if this is what I'm capable of with that little Shield, I think my muscle memory is trained enough to repeat the same results. (This was a full magazine fired as fast as I could get a flash sight picture, so it was at a fairly rapid cadence.)
My personal view is: If I can't solve a "problem" with 6+1 rounds of .45 ACP, I'm in the wrong place to begin with and beyond caring.
I'll never fault anyone for carrying what they feel best serves their personally assessed threat level, however.
Granted, this was on a range and targets don't shoot back, but if this is what I'm capable of with that little Shield, I think my muscle memory is trained enough to repeat the same results. (This was a full magazine fired as fast as I could get a flash sight picture, so it was at a fairly rapid cadence.)
My personal view is: If I can't solve a "problem" with 6+1 rounds of .45 ACP, I'm in the wrong place to begin with and beyond caring.
I'll never fault anyone for carrying what they feel best serves their personally assessed threat level, however.
This has proven to be an extremely thought provoking thread. One of the benefits is that we are pooling a variety of strategies formed from varying perspectives. I believe that what we all have to take away from this exchange is that both life and what we bring from this discussion will be a compromise.
On 21 May 2007 when I became disabled, and I eventually woke up, my priorities changed. Being disabled, I feel that I have a flashing neon sign over me identifying me as a willing victim, and for that reason, I felt like I would have to prepare to encounter the typical mugger. Since the events in Ferguson and Baltimore, the potential threat has expanded to include inadvertently encountering a flash mob engaged in expression of civil unrest. Fortunately, most of the domestic threats have involved one or two perpetrators, unlike Europe's encounters of multiple threats.
I have two priorities, but both evolve around my children. If I am on the road, my job at the end of the day is to make it home to my children; however, if my children are with me, my priority is to ensure my children's safety, at all costs. Whatever we encounter will be the product of faith.
Fate can be a merciless mistress. We won't know what we will encounter until it jumps out at us. Even though my preference is high power rifle competitions, I have shot handguns competitively. My handgun experience involves NRA 2700 3 gun bullseye, IHMSA 200m metallic silhouette, and PPC matches. As I see it, my greatest nightmare is to either neutralize an active distant threat or provide suppression fire so my children can scurry to safety.
Since I can not choose the time, place, or nature of an armed confrontation, I have to accept a compromise that could address any unexpected scenario. Fortunately, I have shot handguns at both close and distant targets, but I do prefer the closer targets. I have hit full sized police targets out to 100 yards with a 1911, as I have hit rams with a (long barreled revolver) at 200 meters. The one lesson that I have taken from that experience is that I need an exposed hammer on my revolver.
The bottom line here, is that virtually any armed encounter that confronts us will most likely not be one that we train for. If we train only for CQB engagements, it won't be CQB. Our training has to be varied, or we will find ourselves up the proverbial creek.
On 21 May 2007 when I became disabled, and I eventually woke up, my priorities changed. Being disabled, I feel that I have a flashing neon sign over me identifying me as a willing victim, and for that reason, I felt like I would have to prepare to encounter the typical mugger. Since the events in Ferguson and Baltimore, the potential threat has expanded to include inadvertently encountering a flash mob engaged in expression of civil unrest. Fortunately, most of the domestic threats have involved one or two perpetrators, unlike Europe's encounters of multiple threats.
I have two priorities, but both evolve around my children. If I am on the road, my job at the end of the day is to make it home to my children; however, if my children are with me, my priority is to ensure my children's safety, at all costs. Whatever we encounter will be the product of faith.
Fate can be a merciless mistress. We won't know what we will encounter until it jumps out at us. Even though my preference is high power rifle competitions, I have shot handguns competitively. My handgun experience involves NRA 2700 3 gun bullseye, IHMSA 200m metallic silhouette, and PPC matches. As I see it, my greatest nightmare is to either neutralize an active distant threat or provide suppression fire so my children can scurry to safety.
Since I can not choose the time, place, or nature of an armed confrontation, I have to accept a compromise that could address any unexpected scenario. Fortunately, I have shot handguns at both close and distant targets, but I do prefer the closer targets. I have hit full sized police targets out to 100 yards with a 1911, as I have hit rams with a (long barreled revolver) at 200 meters. The one lesson that I have taken from that experience is that I need an exposed hammer on my revolver.
The bottom line here, is that virtually any armed encounter that confronts us will most likely not be one that we train for. If we train only for CQB engagements, it won't be CQB. Our training has to be varied, or we will find ourselves up the proverbial creek.
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cmort666
Member
Because of the growing number of "aloha snackbar" events, last year I switched from a Smith 36 "no-dash" loaded with the Federal 158gr. "FBI" load to first a Glock 19 with Winchester White Box 147gr. JHPs, then to a Citadal 3.5 CS 3 1/2" M1911 loaded with Speer 200gr. Gold Dot or Hornady 200gr. XTP JHPs.
While the willful importation of homicidal lunatics seems to be at an end, there are still plenty of them here already.
While I consider five rounds of 158 grain LSWCHP .38 Special more than adequate for somebody who wants my car and or money, I have my doubts when it comes to psychopaths who WANT to die while taking me with them.
The .45acp was partly developed to deal with Moro fanatics. The threat hasn't changed all that much since 1911.
While the willful importation of homicidal lunatics seems to be at an end, there are still plenty of them here already.
While I consider five rounds of 158 grain LSWCHP .38 Special more than adequate for somebody who wants my car and or money, I have my doubts when it comes to psychopaths who WANT to die while taking me with them.
The .45acp was partly developed to deal with Moro fanatics. The threat hasn't changed all that much since 1911.
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cmort666
Member
- I'm not a cop.
- I don't want to be a cop.
- I don't want people to think I'm a cop.
I honestly would rather shoot myself out of shame and disgust, rather than stand around and watch innocent people get slaughtered.
I might get killed in the process, but somebody else might get away and live.
I'm gonna apologize in advance for my ignorance of what may be the popular zeitgeist, but what exactly does that mean?
cmort666
Member
It's mocking slang for "Allahu akhbar", the favorite motto of a lot of people who like to run over, knife or shoot innocent people.
Personally, I'm kind of fond of "Allahu Akhbar and Jeff"
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