I am apparently woefully out of touch . . .
With the Continuing Nut Cases
- Thread starter bowzette
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cmort666
Member
Don't worry, it's just "workplace violence"...
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
If there are cars in the parking lot, I'm going to cover and THEN return fire. If the only cover is a curb or planter, I'll go prone and return fire. No cover at all? I'll shoot on the move to get to cover, any cover. And, yes, I practice shooting on the move at least once a month, weather permitting.
Odds are funny things. The odds of a USAF pilot needing his/her parachute are very small, but don't expect one to leave it behind.
There are wide hallways in my building that are more than 25 yards long. There is an atrium where the elevator lobbies are located that is 12 stories high and more than 25 yards from end to end. If something happens and I'm not near the two locations where our AR carbines are stored, it''s going to be me against whatever threat there is. That's why I practice at long ranges with my handguns.
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cmort666
Member
Among other things, they taught me in the Army:
- Nobody can outrun a bullet.
- The proper response to a near vehicular ambush is to drive over and through it, bringing to bear all available firepower with a maximum of force and violence, as soon as possible.
Among things that are different:
(1) He's not necessarily shooting at me.
(2) This is not a vehicular ambush. This is a massacre in a parking lot. Two different things. My "all available firepower" is a single handgun magazine at a time. Even the smallest group of soldiers would be--what? Four guys with rifles, 30-round magazines each? Grenades, that sort of thing? In other words, parity in terms of equipment, which I wouldn't have in dealing with the armed-nutcase scenario.
One thing is not like the other. You can't even compare them in terms of ethics or duties.
(1) He's not necessarily shooting at me.
(2) This is not a vehicular ambush. This is a massacre in a parking lot. Two different things. My "all available firepower" is a single handgun magazine at a time. Even the smallest group of soldiers would be--what? Four guys with rifles, 30-round magazines each? Grenades, that sort of thing? In other words, parity in terms of equipment, which I wouldn't have in dealing with the armed-nutcase scenario.
One thing is not like the other. You can't even compare them in terms of ethics or duties.
Dvan34
Member
I've have been reading the posts which contain a lot of good information. One thing appears to be overlooked, which I am certain must be assumed. That is as much practice with your selected firearm as possible. May I suggest laser ammo when you dry fire? No one has actually mentioned dry firing but for clarification it is very important. I have a LaserMax sight installed which I only use occasionally when dry firing with a Laser Ammo cartridge. Using the Laser Max together with the laser ammo shows where the bullet would actually hit on a target, generally within a 1/2 inch of the Laser Sight image. I don't use the LaserMax during regular practice or qualification, as I do not want to be dependent upon it. Although I certainly would use the LaserMax if needed at night.
Generally, at night when the weather permits I set up multiple targets in the backyard. Other times during the night or day time using the laser cartridge inside my home on a variety of selected targets, figurines, pictures on a wall, etc.. Granted you aren't hearing the big bang or getting the recoil but practice is practice, drawing, firing, snap shooting. It certainly paid off last week during my re-qualification. It certainly helps 'muscle memory' and increased familiarity with your firearm.
Generally, at night when the weather permits I set up multiple targets in the backyard. Other times during the night or day time using the laser cartridge inside my home on a variety of selected targets, figurines, pictures on a wall, etc.. Granted you aren't hearing the big bang or getting the recoil but practice is practice, drawing, firing, snap shooting. It certainly paid off last week during my re-qualification. It certainly helps 'muscle memory' and increased familiarity with your firearm.
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cmort666
Member
Which gives you the opportunity to shoot him in the back.
If I'm in or in close proximity to a vehicle... ANYBODY'S vehicle that can be driven, it becomes a "close vehicular ambush".
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never been in the military. ONE person in a vehicle is boringly common.
No manned vehicle the U.S. Army has ever employed could travel 2,300 feet per second.
They're shockingly like each other.
But if you're content to run away and let others be slaughtered, that's you're right. The police have no legal duty to protect individuals and neither do you.
Your ethics are purely your own.
neorebel
Member
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I'm a veteran LEO with over 20 years on the books. I love my 1911's but will either carry my Glock 19 or my newly acquired S&W 1076 in 10mm. The Glock carries a lot of ammo and in the form of the Glock 19 is really about the perfect carry gun in my opinion. The 1076 has a LOT of fire power and is a dream to shoot. The 1076 will go on trips out of state in case I have to go through a 10 round limit state. I do live in Missouri and have relatives close to Illinois, so I do go through Illinois a lot. It has a 10 round limit. Even though I don't agree with the law, I'm not going to break the 10 round limit, it's their law so I obey it too.
Being a big boy scout.....I would suggest it may not happen to you, but it may happen to someone around you as you put it the odds are not great of it happening to you.....so....if you're in a large crowd.....your odds just went way up...because what if it's there time????
Anyway being prepared is always better than being caught with your pants down.
As an LEO I wish I knew when IT is going to happen too.
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Suppose you miss? Suppose your cartridge is not effective? Suppose he's wearing body armor? Suppose you experience a malfunction? Do you have cover or concealment? Do you have an escape route if you fail? Are you currently cut off from escape?
They're all odds that would have to be carefully weighed. Suffice to say, there are shots that I would take, and there are shots I would not. If I'm anywhere in his forward 180, I'd prefer to not engage. From the rear, easy access to an instant escape, decent cover, reasonably sure he doesn't have any of his a-hole buddies around to shoot me--yeah, I think I would.
You gonna hotwire it?
I'm referring to the "overwhelming firepower" part. Obviously.
But while we're on it, it seems their advice was more or less that you shouldn't hang around in ambush zone, right? Not that you should take a fight you didn't think you could win.
That's where I'm at. I don't think that handgun-vs-rifle is an especially advantageous position to be in. And I can't see the Army ever telling you to fight riflemen with a handgun. So instead of hanging around, I'm gonna boogie if I can.
I am, and I don't.
My biggest worry wouldn't even be getting shot and killed, since nobody's dependent on me. I'd be more worried about being crippled and becoming a burden on my family for the remainder of my life. Eventually, all the fanfare will fade, and then who's stuck flipping the quadriplegic over so he doesn't get bedsores?
I knew a guy who was a full 'quad. Got pretty decent at using a computer with some eye-tracking equipment and a little straw for clicking (blow on it for click, suck on it for right-click), enough to play some games. Sometimes, he was an alright guy to hang around and goof off with. But he'd also talk about how he wished he'd died, not because he was so miserable himself, but because of the burden he was on his wife and parents.
Not that he was suicidal, mind you. In his own words, laughing, "How the hell would I even do it?". Which would be funny if it wasn't such a dark thought.
So yeah. I'm quite happy to run away from a fight to avoid that living hell. I'll run away from a lot of fights. That's me--I deal in realities.
will527
US Veteran
I have already been in that situation. In 1984 I went into a gas station while it was being robbed, by one individual. His back was turned, so he did not see me. I walked back to my car, and since I did not have my revolver, asked my wife to use hers. She had a five shot Bodyguard J frame. I walked back into the store, and told the guy to drop it. He did not, and I shot him once in the arm. The police were there in about three minutes. They could not believe that I had done that in that situation. After getting my information, they thanked me, and I went on my way.it was a surreal situation looking back on it. It made the news, and I received a cash reward, from BP oil. About six months later, I had to go to court to testify against the individual. There were people there from the confidence store, BP, Due to overcrowding at the Jail, the guy only received one year. No one could believe it. To summarize A Five shot J frame will work, and you never know when you will walk into a situation. I could have driven away, but I chose to go back in, so you cannot predict also what your reaction will be. The only down side was that I had to provide my Social Security number to BP, and claim the reward as earned income on my taxes for that year. Totally surreal, as I have stated. Another point was that I only had five rounds, and no reloads.
cmort666
Member
Just about anything CAN work... if you have the will to use it.
NOTHING will work if you don't.
cmort666
Member
You seem unable to address a widely reported event with a large body count attached. Are you denying that it happened?
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JK-linux
Member
If someone comes at me with an AK-47 in a mall, or tries to run me over out of the blue with a stolen 5 ton dump truck, I'm not sure the difference between a Glock 10mm loaded with Underwood and a 640 loaded with .357 Gold Dots is going to make a difference. Based on risk/reward I feel sufficiently rewarded with the J & K frames or Glock 26 I currently carry relative to the risks I stand a likelihood of encountering and realistically discouraging.
So, it's a little hard to keep up with all the multi-quotes, but I'm trying to figure out who's winning . . . Shooting people in the back or running them over with a car . . . ?
This for me as well ^^^^
I need just enough ammo to cover myself until i can
get to safety.....or more guns and ammo.
I feel absolutely safe with a revolver.
Chuck
cmort666
Member
I've found that leaving at the first sign of gunplay seems to be the best choice . . .
cmort666
Member
Once again, it's a question of whether you feel an obligation to try to stop innocent people from getting slaughtered.
If you don't then running away is clearly the best choice.
mnshutterbug
Member
I feel absolutely safe with my pocket knife. I live in a county that maybe has 1 murder every 20 years and 1 armed robbery every 5 or 10 years. Nobody has a reason to murder me and I don't work in a store. I also don't visit large cities and I avoid crowds because I just don't like people that much. Not much to be training for around here. Maybe someday but until then I'll stay antisocial.
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