686 Target Load
- Thread starter BradLH
- Start date
GCF
Member
I really like the "slip fit" Lyman M Expander. I use them on my Dillon 550 for .38 / .357 / .45acp. Big improvement over the standard design.
Takes an extra step - as it's not "powder through", but well worth it, IMHO. Currently on sale at Midway:
Lyman Neck Expander M Die 38 Special 357 Mag 357 Maximum
My standard range load:
Dardas 158LSWC / TiteGroup 3.6 / .357 brass / wwsp primers
I use one of these for 45 ACP in my Dillon 650. They show one for 9/.38 but it may be a bit snug for .358" lead.
Mr.BulletFeeder by DAA Powder Funnel - Dillon
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
You already got a bunch of good loads in this thread.
One of my two favorite .38 Special loads is a 158gr LSWC over 4.0gr W231/HP-38. It is very accurate and clean in all my 38/357 revolvers.
For the ultimate in clean go with a coated bullet since most of the dirt and soot comes from the lube on cast bullets.
My other favorite .38 Special load is a 148gr DEWC over 3.4gr W231. If you prefer a HBWC go with 3.2gr W231 instead.
One of my two favorite .38 Special loads is a 158gr LSWC over 4.0gr W231/HP-38. It is very accurate and clean in all my 38/357 revolvers.
For the ultimate in clean go with a coated bullet since most of the dirt and soot comes from the lube on cast bullets.
My other favorite .38 Special load is a 148gr DEWC over 3.4gr W231. If you prefer a HBWC go with 3.2gr W231 instead.
Like GCF said, I too feel the "M" style expander dies are better with lead bullets.
The expander plug is longer which provides deeper case expansion so the lead bullet doesn't have to do the case expanding the last bit that it's seated.
All of RCBS's new expander dies are "M" style too.
Also, if your expander plug is too small of diameter for the lead bullets diameter you're using, that tight fit will squash the base.
Some Cowboy Action dies have larger diameter expanders plugs.
A tight fit is good for jacketed bullets in magnum loads that need a lot of case tension but not so great for soft lead bullets.
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Forget it's a .357
Give it the 148 gr HBWC with 2.8 gr of Bullseye. One thing I do, though, is to load these in .357 brass to keep the crud ring away.
I've shot plenty of Speer and Hornady swaged HBWC and SWCs and haven't had a bit of lead problems.
Give it the 148 gr HBWC with 2.8 gr of Bullseye. One thing I do, though, is to load these in .357 brass to keep the crud ring away.
I've shot plenty of Speer and Hornady swaged HBWC and SWCs and haven't had a bit of lead problems.
GCF
Member
I've been curious about the Mr. BulletFeeder expander / funnels for a while. W/ regards to suitability for different kinds of bullets, the big question for me is, what is the OD of the expander?
I contacted them by email once, inquiring about expander diameter, & they were a little vague. Indicated that the exact OD, kind of depended on the particular production run.
The OD of my Lyman M 38 / 357, is 0.355", & the .45 plug is 0.449. Figuring 0.001" springback (depending on the brass), I get case mouth ID's of 0.354", & 0.448" respectively.
I don't load swaged (& very rarely jacketed) in either caliber, but the "M" seems to work well w/ .358" (cast & plated), as well as .452" cast, & .451" plated.
I'm not sure how snug, is too snug - for swaged bullet match loads, but I'd think a custom machined 0.356" (or 0.357") OD expander, might be interesting to try out.
A "new style", Dillon .38 / .357 expander, has an OD of 0.354", producing an expanded case mouth ID of 0.353", which to me, has always seemed a bit snug - for hard cast .38 / .357 target loads. Other's mileage may vary, I suppose.
Can you provide an OD, of your Mr. BF, .45 cal expander?
GCF
Member
I've never loaded either, but been curious.
I guess I've been wondering if there is any real accuracy advantage, to swaged - over cast. Assuming uniform, correct ID cylinder throats, of course.
What's your take?
GCF
Member
May have been mentioned previously, but at least from what I've seen, the key to achieving correct cast bullet, to barrel groove diameter size (bullet size should be .001" - .002" over groove diameter - when entering the forcing cone), is cylinder throats of a uniform .357" - .3585" ID.
Anything smaller, will swage the bullet down equal to (or smaller then) your barrel groove diameter - leaving you solely dependent on bullet obduration, to seal, & hold the rifling.
A firm finger pressure, lead bullet / cylinder throat push through, is said to be ideal.
Note that even revolvers w/ minimum ID cylinder throats, can usually be made to shoot accurately (w/ some load combination), as long as the throat ID's are uniform. Unfortunately, it's not unusual, to find a revolver w/ one (or more) throat ID - smaller then the rest.
My $0.02, anyway...
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Measuring with a micrometer I get 0.4491" below the shoulder and 0.4555" above the shoulder. I didn't think to measure length before putting everything back together but the MBF powder funnel appears to be about 1/10" shorter than the Dillon on the expander portion.
My MBF powder funnel works great with jacketed bullets but I've not used it enough with lead bullets to give a recommendation.
I've only loaded about 250 of the 357 Magnum with lead bullets and have been using a single stage with a Redding Competition Pro 3 die set and RCBS Cowboy expander. Seems to be working well so far, even with virgin Starline, but I'd like to get set up for 357 on the Dillon soon.
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GCF
Member
Thanks for the info. I suspect your MBF expander funnel will work great w/ CB's.
Is the RCBS CB expander, of the same "slip fit" design, as the MBF, & Lyman M? Also, did you happen to get a "below the shoulder" OD?
Looking forward to a report on the Zero swaged .358" SWC's. I have had very good results w/ their .45acp / 185, & 230 JHP bullets, & been curious about their swaged .38 HP's.
reloading the 357
I typically use Berry's copper plated bullets for the 357 magnum, (approx .10 per 158 grain bullet). I've used lead but usually limit the lead to 38 special.
I got a great deal on some 125 grain HP and have been using Alliant Power Pro 300 MP powder my Hornady manual shows a maximum velocity of 1600 fps using 20.4 grains as a maximum load. The Alliant web site lists a maximum load of 22.3 grains which pushes a Speer Gold Dot at 1995 fps according to their data, I started at 20 grains and have worked up to 22 grains with no problems in my Smith 686. Holding a 2" group at 50 yards from a rest. Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
I typically use Berry's copper plated bullets for the 357 magnum, (approx .10 per 158 grain bullet). I've used lead but usually limit the lead to 38 special.
I got a great deal on some 125 grain HP and have been using Alliant Power Pro 300 MP powder my Hornady manual shows a maximum velocity of 1600 fps using 20.4 grains as a maximum load. The Alliant web site lists a maximum load of 22.3 grains which pushes a Speer Gold Dot at 1995 fps according to their data, I started at 20 grains and have worked up to 22 grains with no problems in my Smith 686. Holding a 2" group at 50 yards from a rest. Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
The RCBS "Cowboy" expander is similar to the MBF powder funnel and measures 0.3563" below the shoulder, 0.3605" O.D. shoulder and is tapered above the shoulder. The length of the 0.3563" O.D. portion is 0.415".
I've only tried 100 each of the 158 grain Hornady LSWC, Zero LSWC and Missouri coated LRN but I'm favoring the Zero so far.
It's the soft hollow base.....
It's the soft hollow base that is the most accurate. Trouble is, about any decent bullet will shoot better than I do and a hard cast SWC will do about as well for me.
Slow speed, heavy bullet combo is the least affected by any external factor and gravity drop is extremely predictable given any location. You may have to adjust if you are near a mountain full of iron ore but I've never encountered that as gravity is pretty constant all throughout this region.
Altitude can be a factor in bullet drop but again, it can be adjusted for quickly and predictably.
Temperature and humidity will affect air density but unless changing rapidly, can be accounted for.
These are usually more of a factor in rifle shooting.
Again, for me, nothing is as inconsistent as my seeing/shooting ability.
It's the soft hollow base that is the most accurate. Trouble is, about any decent bullet will shoot better than I do and a hard cast SWC will do about as well for me.
Slow speed, heavy bullet combo is the least affected by any external factor and gravity drop is extremely predictable given any location. You may have to adjust if you are near a mountain full of iron ore but I've never encountered that as gravity is pretty constant all throughout this region.
Altitude can be a factor in bullet drop but again, it can be adjusted for quickly and predictably.
Temperature and humidity will affect air density but unless changing rapidly, can be accounted for.
These are usually more of a factor in rifle shooting.
Again, for me, nothing is as inconsistent as my seeing/shooting ability.
I am concerned more with being closer to the equator and the humidity, height above or at sea level and the moon phase, of course those who live below the equator have it all in reverse!
Xtreme's standard plated (SPB-Superior Plated) bullet has a 1200 fps recommended max. I believe Berry's is the same, or 1250. Accuracy deteriorates if you go over that, in my experience. I usually shoot mine in the 1050 - 1125 fps range & are accurate.
Xtreme has a thicker plated bullet (Hollow Points (HP) and Heavy Plate Concave Base (HPCB) ) in many calibers that they rate to 1500 fps. Pricing is very competitive.
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GCF
Member
Xtreme's standard plated (SPB-Superior Plated) bullet has a 1200 fps recommended max. I believe Berry's is the same, or 1250. Accuracy deteriorates if you go over that, in my experience. I usually shoot mine in the 1050 - 1125 fps range & are accurate.
What are your suggested loads (or at least powders of choice), for accuracy w/ the Xtreme 158SWC / .358"?
I have a box of them, & to date, am not making much progress w/ Unique...
An otherwise accurate, 4" / M686-ND, for the record.
don't give up on coated bullets.
commercial bullets are usually too hard (brinell 18 and up!)
they make them hard for shipping reasons they don't look
damaged after being bounced around in a truck.
i make my own alloy to 11 brinell which for me is perfect
i powder coat load and shoot....zero leading.
zero deposits of any kind.
commercial bullets are usually too hard (brinell 18 and up!)
they make them hard for shipping reasons they don't look
damaged after being bounced around in a truck.
i make my own alloy to 11 brinell which for me is perfect
i powder coat load and shoot....zero leading.
zero deposits of any kind.
gwpercle
Member
My magical 38 Special accuracy load is :
Lyman # 358432 - 160 grain or the NOE reproduction 358-160-WC, both of these are 160 grain button nosed wadcutter bullets. cast and sized .357 or .358 , makes no difference in my guns.
with 2.7 grains of Bullseye , in 38 Special case and crimp into the crimp groove.
A 25 shot group at 25 yards will make one ragged hole 1 1/2 " across, that's from a rest and a model 64 S&W set up for target shooting.
I have found no other load/bullet that will better this one and I've tried many .
Gary
Lyman # 358432 - 160 grain or the NOE reproduction 358-160-WC, both of these are 160 grain button nosed wadcutter bullets. cast and sized .357 or .358 , makes no difference in my guns.
with 2.7 grains of Bullseye , in 38 Special case and crimp into the crimp groove.
A 25 shot group at 25 yards will make one ragged hole 1 1/2 " across, that's from a rest and a model 64 S&W set up for target shooting.
I have found no other load/bullet that will better this one and I've tried many .
Gary
