The Young LT's Triple Lock .455

[handejector]

The 691 could also have duplicate numbers to any of the .455 Mk II HE 1st Model, TLs #1 to c. #5000 to #6000.

Jim,
I agree with all your number speculations with the exception of the above.
I think it unlikely that unused but already numbered frames were laying around. I believe they most likely used them up in the rush of the early War production.
Sure, it might be that a few frames got left in a dark corner, but I doubt it.
I think the last 691 455 TL's were built on new frames numbered in the late, late 44 series.

 

[handejector]

In the SUMMER of 1914, the Brits had asked S&W if they could build .455 revolvers. S&W built a .455 TL and sent it to them.

Lee,
Does this then negate the shipping date for the 1st 33 .455 TLs of April 8th, 1912 or is that a typo in Neal and Jinks?

It has to be a typo. Note that the story about the sample sent in the summer is from the later book by Roy. War began 7-28-14, and England entered the war 8-4-14. England contacted S&W stating they needed guns immediately and would accept the "sample style (TL)". However, In History of, Roy states that the first ordered guns were not ready till Sept 24!!!
Personally, I'd have been quite nervous if I had to wait from Aug 4 till early Oct(shipping time included) for my gun.

Also, if one has a gun with one of the 68 duplicated #s in the first 666 .44 1st Model 455s, is there any way to know if they have a .44 1st Model .455 or .455 1st Model? Both guns are .455 TLs!

I doubt there is any way to know. How could we? How could Roy know when not even seeing the gun?
We need to ask Roy if he has lettered any. I bet he has.
I would SURMISE that he merely points out that there could be two with that number when/if he letters one of the 68 that could be duplicated.

 

[1Aspenhill]

Lee,
Great gun and history! This is what collecting S&Ws is all about! Great to see you and hope to see you in Tulsa!
Bill

 

[Hondo44]

Lee,

I have one point of confusion about the 808 44 spl 1st Models converted to 455. By actual count the 666 military TLs matches the serial numbers on pages 204 & 205 of N&J. But by actual count of the commercial TLs on pg 203 I get 146 commercial guns, for a total of 812. Is the 808 count due to newer information gleaned in the almost 20 years since the 1996 printing?

 

[bmcgilvray]

It's difficult to find words! Jaw-dropping!

So that's what a new Triple Lock looks like.

 

[rednichols]

Realising it's a thread resurrect, nevertheless: I have to comment (admiringly) on the thinking behind the shape of the belt loop on the backside of the holster . It looks merely decorative but in fact the "waisted" shape that is wider at top than at the bottom, and the placement on the holster, is beautifully functional.

 

[Texas Star]

Realising it's a thread resurrect, nevertheless: I have to comment (admiringly) on the thinking behind the shape of the belt loop on the backside of the holster . It looks merely decorative but in fact the "waisted" shape that is wider at top than at the bottom, and the placement on the holster, is beautifully functional.

The way the flap is cut in front reminds me of some similar holster model. Does it look familiar to Red or anyone else here?

 

[Omnivore]

Congratulations on a great find. A rare and valuable piece of history.

 

[6518John]

Realising it's a thread resurrect,

This is my kind of zombie thread--I would like to see ones like this everyday!

 

[bmg60]

Hi
This is a great gun. I bought the gun from lee about 3 years ago It now lives
In my collection. Thanks to lee for all his had work doing all the research. This gun will be in a display with other 45 caliber revolvers next year at Reno.
Jim Fisher
LM 1491

 

[rwt1405]

Hi
This is a great gun. I bought the gun from lee about 3 years ago It now lives
In my collection. Thanks to lee for all his had work doing all the research. This gun will be in a display with other 45 caliber revolvers next year at Reno.
Jim Fisher
LM 1491

Congrats on getting an excellent revolver!

And a BIG Thank You to Lee, for sharing those pictures, and story, that really brought this exceptional piece of history to life!

 

[handejector]

Lee,

I have one point of confusion about the 808 44 spl 1st Models converted to 455. By actual count the 666 military TLs matches the serial numbers on pages 204 & 205 of N&J. But by actual count of the commercial TLs on pg 203 I get 146 commercial guns, for a total of 812. Is the 808 count due to newer information gleaned in the almost 20 years since the 1996 printing?

Looks like a math error or a typo to me.
With 666 military conversions listed on 204-5, plus 146 commercial converts listed on 203, the number should be 812.
BUT, at top of page 203, the number for the commercials is given as 142. That is where the discrepancy of 4 begins.

 

[RoninPhx]

I have a triple lock i have been researching for a number of years.
it is a MarkI having the full ejector shroud.
it is a three digit, of the 5000 number.
has no caliber marking on barrel but has british pressure proof marks
on cylinder, etc.
It was at some point coming back here converted to .45colt.
On the metal on the backstrap of the grip is a captain's name.
he was in the scottish highlanders, and participated in the battle of the
somme.
I have his burial cemetery with pictures in belgium kia august of 1916.
I have his birth, home address, parents names, went to university of glasgow where he is on the honor roll for the war.
I also have his picture in military uniform, 26 at time of death.
I think he most likely purchased the firearm from the commissary program the british had for officers, attemping to get a copy of the sales order.
Another man's name is in the wood on the butt. He was a corporal, killed in 1918, and buried in a cemetary north of edinbourgh. His unit of the flying corp was in the somme about the time of my captain's death.
I keep thinking maybe battlefield pickup.
I do know that the british would not allow enlisted men to bring weapons home, but allowed officers to do so. They were afraid of labor unrest, and all those men coming home trained. they did not trust their population.
Thus the firearms registration act of 1920, allowing an officer to keep the gun, but could not have or buy ammunition for it.
Gun shoots good too.
My guy could not have had it for very long before he was killed.
since then i have acquired some medallions etc the royal highlanders wore on their caps and shirts.
A LONG time ago my family was just south of glasgow and my family name at one point originates from that area now called stow, scotland.
the other irony is i have a luger p8 artillery, which i traced to hitler's division the bayerische division, which was in the somme battle. The commanding officer of the unit that gun was in was a german relative.
something to me to have two firearms tracable to two men on both sides.
In research, WWII, i found a distant relative flying a focke Wolfe in the air battle for britain, shot down, repatriated to germany, and killed during the defense of berlin. On the other side, a member of the german's and my family that was killed while serving on the H.M.S. hood, when sunk by the bismarck. There is lots to know about these old guns.
as to the military holster for the triplelock, i only have a repro, but it is pretty neat. It had a flap on the back with a button for quick removal, or carry on the belt. Drain hole in the bottom. I also could comment that revolver is just as smooth as can be in double action, or single, truely a well made firearm when craftsmen were still around
I love this stuff, and that's why i just paid five dollars a round to get some live ammo for a mint condition mauser 71/84. A magazine fed rifle in germany when we were still using trap door.
The other item i am fooling with is a 1855maynard cap system springfield made in 1859. I am sure it was used in the war of northern aggression. I have to resolve and get a few parts for the ramrod, and it's gonna get shot too.

 

[Hondo44]

I have a triple lock i have been researching for a number of years.
it is a MarkI having the full ejector shroud.
it is a three digit, of the 5000 number.
has no caliber marking on barrel but has british pressure proof marks
on cylinder, etc.
It was at some point coming back here converted to .45 Colt.

That's a fantastic history you've compiled of the gun's provenance!

The serial # will help us determine for you if it's a 1st or 2nd version Triple Lock built for the British contract, unless it's a duplicated #.

There are three basic versions of .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, .455 Mark II chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British there are 666 #s1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666). The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 “.44 HE 1st Model TL” chambered in .455, 1st version above.

*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.


If converted to 45 Colt the correct way, it will still safely shoot the 455 MK I & MK II as well.

 

[Muley Gil]

"The other item i am fooling with is a 1855maynard cap system springfield made in 1859. I am sure it was used in the war of northern aggression. I have to resolve and get a few parts for the ramrod, and it's gonna get shot too."

I shoot WBTS firearms, originals and replicas, in competition as a member of the North-South Skirmish Association. If I can be of any assistance in locating the parts you need, send me a PM.

 

[rhmc24]

Nere's mine, now 45 Colt ---


Probably a private purchase, only British mark is "Not English Made" on lower right frame ----->

 

[Toyman]

I feel that the 455 guns do not get the recognition they deserve. We who chase history of guns are missing the history associated with the 455's and this one shows what can be found.
Maybe since the history is not of a gun in the USA it doesn't seem so important.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Hi
This is a great gun. I bought the gun from lee about 3 years ago It now lives in my collection.

I know this is a zombie thread, but I was curious about the Young LT's story. I don't know whats been unearthed so far, but let me add the bit that I've dug up.

I think the gun belongs to the father of the man that's highlighted in the book about that units military history. He was a very prominent citizen, listed in Who's Who of Canada.



The father also was retired from Canadian military service, with a LT rank in 1905.




As for the son, Arthur Marshall Irvine (I did not find a Jr. after his name), he attained the rank of Major in WWII, and was awarded an MBE from the British and an Orange Order from the Dutch, and lived at 243 York street Cornwall.

World War 2 Awards.com - IRVINE, Arthur Marshall

Some info on the father:

Arthur Marshall Irvine
Birthdate: July 12, 1881 (71)
Birthplace: Saint John, New Brunswick
Death: Died August 14, 1952 in Cornwall general Hosp., Cornwall, Ontario
Immediate Family:

Son of John Edward Irvine and Julia Elvira White
Husband of Lulah Louise Craibe

 

[handejector]

I know this is a zombie thread, but I was curious about the Young LT's story. I don't know whats been unearthed so far, but let me add the bit that I've dug up.

I think the gun belongs to the father of the man that's highlighted in the book about that units military history. He was a very prominent citizen, listed in Who's Who of Canada.



The father also was retired from Canadian military service, with a LT rank in 1905.




As for the son, Arthur Marshall Irvine (I did not find a Jr. after his name), he attained the rank of Major in WWII, and was awarded an MBE from the British and an Orange Order from the Dutch, and lived at 243 York street Cornwall.

World War 2 Awards.com - IRVINE, Arthur Marshall

Some info on the father:

Arthur Marshall Irvine
Birthdate: July 12, 1881 (71)
Birthplace: Saint John, New Brunswick
Death: Died August 14, 1952 in Cornwall general Hosp., Cornwall, Ontario
Immediate Family:

Son of John Edward Irvine and Julia Elvira White
Husband of Lulah Louise Craibe

"I think the gun belongs to the father of the man that's highlighted in the book"

Possible, but I doubt it. The father left the Army in Apr, 1905, 11-1/2 years before this gun was shipped in Nov, 1916!. Maybe he went back in for WW I, but I doubt that also since he had become so prominent.
I recall seeing other Irvines in the Army in WW I, and I assumed one of them may have owned it, and gave it to young AM when he joined up.


I obtained Irvine's service record from Canada.
I knew he rose to Major, in very quick time as I recall. He was assigned to Bn Headquarters staff.
I don't remember much more. The record went with the gun.

 

[SVT28]

Jim, you lucky dog. This piece is exquisite and the box just makes me melt. I would fall over and pay whatever if I ever got a chance to buy a correct box for my TL Target in 44 spl. Feel free to post a few more pics if you have them, what a gem.

SVT28