Targeting on the body question

[AJ]

Bottom line is you keep shooting until the target is down and no longer fighting. Accuracy does count.

I taught police and military security forces in the shooting defensively and offensively for a couple of years while I was on active duty. I never told them I was teaching them to kill. I was teaching them to stop a fight. Now if the bad guy died in the process, that was his problem he started it. My main focus was my students came home at the end of their shift or tour of duty.

 

[cracker57]

Continentalop,
You are correct Sir, post has been edited to remove insult

 

[crazyphil]

Didn't Wild Bill get shot in the back while playing poker?

Abe Lincoln got shot in the back of the head too, while
watching a play, but that didn't make him any less of
a great president.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Abe Lincoln got shot in the back of the head too, while
watching a play, but that didn't make him any less of
a great president.

Agreed, but Abe wasn't a gunfighter and Wild Bill wasn't President . . .

 

[okiegtrider]

 

[Old TexMex]

From out in left field (because most everything worthwhile has already been said):

Pain is not a fight stopper to be relied upon. Damage is. Broken large skeletal and blood loss, the former quicker than the latter will sure work, but only in the case of "have to".

 

[AJ]

From out in left field (because most everything worthwhile has already been said):

Pain is not a fight stopper to be relied upon. Damage is. Broken large skeletal and blood loss, the former quicker than the latter will sure work, but only in the case of "have to".

A physically fit bad guy can keep on fighting (for a minute or so) even after a killing shot. Has to do with how oxygenated his blood is and probably other factors. He can do a lot of damage in that length of time. In competition years ago I could take down 7 targets (one being a swinger, had to hit twice) in 5.4 seconds from the holster & hands in the air. That is why we were taught head shots. To "disconnect the brain". Yes, a shot in the hip can and should put them down. But, remember they are still able to fight if so inclined.

 

[TomkinsSP]

From out in left field (because most everything worthwhile has already been said):

Pain is not a fight stopper to be relied upon. Damage is. Broken large skeletal and blood loss, the former quicker than the latter will sure work, but only in the case of "have to".

Foreign objects shorting out a damaged CNS works pretty well...

 

[Old TexMex]

Agreed with y'all. Headshot is best, Mozambique and all that.

 

[Weimar]

I am not any expert by any means but I was Army Military Police for 20 yrs and they taught us and I taught my troops - shoot center mass. Reason is that you are nervous and scared when confronted with a shooting possibility and if you train shooting at the largest target, then you'll do so under stress.
IMHO, trying to mentally train yourself to shoot lower, seems to me you could accidentally shoot under the target, or hit them lower and not stop them.
And if you are being asked to explain to the authorities what happened, its a lot easier to say, I was trained to shoot center mass and stop the threat. Rather than say "I aimed at their pelvis to try and immediately stop them"

Probably if you shoot as you train you'll be fine, as you would only shoot because of "fear for your life" is always the reason and why you'd pull and shoot anyway

Ed

 

[Kiwi cop]

Well Maasad Ayoob has said that a pelvic shot or a couple shots in that area is a very well know stopper. For one it stops a person from being on their feet, and causes tremendous pain. Enough that they will cease hostilities!

Remember the key word here is stopper but it can also be a killer.

If the intention is to not cause a fatal wound, then shooting to the pelvic region should not be done. The idea is when shooting someone isnot to kill but to stop them causing you or another serious injury or death. Aim for centre mass, but be prepared for it not to work.

Today many of those intending to do others bad will wear body armour. Then there is the effect of various drugs, in the 70's it was PCP. Today it is meth.

So if a couple of shots to centre mass don't work we are trained to go either high (head) or low to stop an offender. Both can be a bit iffy.

Heads are madeof bone, pretty dense in places too, and dense bone can cause some bullets to do crazy things. Hit in an eye or ear and there is a direct pathway to the brain. Elsewhere with a decent self defence round and it should work okay. But the head is also small and with the adrenaline dump involved in a shooting you may not hit it.

The pelvic area has a lot of bone to cause an offender to stop. There are also some major blood vessels which could cause bleed out, but that'll take some time.

As someone said above, Masad Ayoob in the past has spoken of a 2 high, 1 low system whereby two shots to the centre mass and one to the pelvic area to stop an attacker. One offender who ended up stopping and surrendering when the pistol was aimed at his pelvis was asked in court what caused him to stop at that point. "Cause the cop was gonna shoot my balls off" was the reply.

Good reasoning..

 

[SquarePizza]

Ok, ALS medic here, I am going to toss in my 2 cents.

1- Major blood vessels of the abdomen:
A- Descending Aorta
B- Illiac Arteries (when the aorta splits to two)
C- Illiac Veins
D- Inferior Vena Cava

All of these can cause an exsanguinating hemorrhage.

Major organs:
1- Spleen (upper right)
2- Liver (largest portion is upper left, but it is a large organ and extends to the upper right)
3- Kidneys (Left and Right side, along the belly button line)

All of these can cause an exsanguinating hemorrhage.

Major bones of the abdomen
1- Lumbar spine (CNS damage distal to the trauma)
2- Pelvic girdle (damage to which will cause massive bleeding and loss of structural stability).

That's right, BONES BLEED. Its actually where our red blood cells come from. Major long bones such as the femur and humorous can result in 250-500cc of blood lost per fracture. The pelvis is typically 500cc+ per fracture, up to and including exsanguinating hemorrhage if there are enough fractured spots.

Put enough rounds into a long bone and the target will bleed out. I'm not talking about their combat effectiveness, I am simply talking about various points of abdominal trauma that are very life threatening.

 

[AJ]

Ok, ALS medic here, I am going to toss in my 2 cents.

1- Major blood vessels of the abdomen:
A- Descending Aorta
B- Illiac Arteries (when the aorta splits to two)
C- Illiac Veins
D- Inferior Vena Cava

All of these can cause an exsanguinating hemorrhage.

Major organs:
1- Spleen (upper right)
2- Liver (largest portion is upper left, but it is a large organ and extends to the upper right)
3- Kidneys (Left and Right side, along the belly button line)

All of these can cause an exsanguinating hemorrhage.

Major bones of the abdomen
1- Lumbar spine (CNS damage distal to the trauma)
2- Pelvic girdle (damage to which will cause massive bleeding and loss of structural stability).

That's right, BONES BLEED. Its actually where our red blood cells come from. Major long bones such as the femur and humorous can result in 250-500cc of blood lost per fracture. The pelvis is typically 500cc+ per fracture, up to and including exsanguinating hemorrhage if there are enough fractured spots.

Put enough rounds into a long bone and the target will bleed out. I'm not talking about their combat effectiveness, I am simply talking about various points of abdominal trauma that are very life threatening.

While your Perp is bleeding out he can still fight if so inclined.

Head shots are the only true fight stopping shots.

 

[SquarePizza]

The actual required to sustain life portion of the brain is the "old brain": Cerebellum, Pons, Medulla, and the spinal cord itself.

All of these control autonomic functions of the body, and damage to them will disrupt critical functions such as respiratory drive, heart rate, blood vessel diameter (neurogenic shock), and the autonomic nervous system.

The old brain is a great target, but a small one too.

The other areas of the brain are highly vascular and damage to them can create internal hemorrhage, which can increase intercranial pressure, which can cause the person to vagal out and decrease their respiratory and heart rates. But these are not instant effects on the body and the body doesn't really need much of the larger cerebrum in order to keep living.

I'm not advocating for one area of the body or another, I am simply pointing out that necessary to life organs, vessels, and bones lie all along the trunk from the old brain all the way to the pelvis.

Life doesn't stop until the perfusion (oxygenation) of the parts of the brain necessary for life stops. To do that with trauma you are going to need:

1- Hypovolemic shock (take the blood out of the vessels)
2- Neurogenic shock (open up the vessels and drop the blood pressure)
3- Cardiogenic shock (stop the heart)

 

[SquarePizza]

And while I'm at it, a little anatomy of center mass:

1- Organs:
A- Heart (best target of center mass, as damage results in a stop or drop in flowing blood)
B- Lungs
C- Spinal cord (causing loss of function distal to the trauma)
D- Airway passages

Hearts are great, lungs could be good targets, but we have two and we can function quite nicely with a hole in one of them. The real threat to lung damage is a tension pneumothorax which can eventually put pressure on the heart and begin to reduce cardiac output. Lungs tend to hemorrahge a little more slowly because the blood vessels quickly divide into capillaries surrounding the alveoli.

Major vessels:
1- Aorta, both ascending and decending.
2- Superior and Inferior vena cava
3- Pulmonary veins/arteries

All of these can cause an exsanguinating hemorrhage.

Unless the heart is damaged, center mass targets are basically bleed out targets, how quickly the exsanguination depends on the size of the blood vessel.

Humans are funny, they can survive insane amounts of trauma at times, and other times simple accidents can cause something like an aortic tear that bleeds the person out in minutes. There is no real magic place that will 100% of the time result in instant death, most often people dying of trauma compensate for a little while.

 

[AJ]

The actual required to sustain life portion of the brain is the "old brain": Cerebellum, Pons, Medulla, and the spinal cord itself.

All of these control autonomic functions of the body, and damage to them will disrupt critical functions such as respiratory drive, heart rate, blood vessel diameter (neurogenic shock), and the autonomic nervous system.

The old brain is a great target, but a small one too.

The other areas of the brain are highly vascular and damage to them can create internal hemorrhage, which can increase intercranial pressure, which can cause the person to vagal out and decrease their respiratory and heart rates. But these are not instant effects on the body.

I'm not advocating for one area of the body or another, I am simply pointing out that necessary to life organs, vessels, and bones lie all along the trunk from the old brain all the way to the pelvis.

Life doesn't stop until the perfusion (oxygenation) of the parts of the brain necessary for life stops. To do that with trauma you are going to need:

1- Hypovolemic shock (take the blood out of the vessels)
2- Neurogenic shock (open up the vessels and drop the blood pressure)
3- Cardiogenic shock (stop the heart)

I am advocating head shots to stop a fight, if the target does not stop fighting after two to the chest.

I too, have seen my share of bone trauma. Just retired after 22 years of Med/Surg and Orthopedic Nursing. I became a Nurse after 24 years in the Marine Corps. Also a USMC Combat Pistol Instructor, a Combat Shotgun Instructor and an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor. I spent three years in the F.A.S.T. Companies.

 

[Rastoff]

There is no real magic place that will 100% of the time result in instant death, most often people dying of trauma compensate for a little while.

There are a couple places that, as you're aware, result in instant death 100% of the time. However, the theory is correct in that a defender cannot guarantee to hit those spots 100% of the time; they're very small.

And while I'm at it, a little anatomy of center mass...

What you're discussing here is the thoracic cavity, not center mass. Indeed, when "center mass" is stated, this is what people think of. I would like to broaden the term though because the thoracic cavity isn't always center mass.

What center mass really is, is the largest target available at the time. Look at this picture:

In this pic what most call "center mass" is only half exposed. What is actually centered on this target is just to the left of the normal center mass. But, it's still the center of the largest portion of the bad guy and probably the best place to put the first round.

Here's another:

In this pic the thoracic is almost completely covered. In this case center mass has become the head.

The point with all this is that center mass is not always the same place, but is still always the best place for the first shot or two.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Got a question that some of you, due to previous training and education might know, in regards to shot placement on the human body.

Now up front, I realize that bullets can do weird things when entering an object but generally speaking, how effective are shots placed at the lower abdomen height, think belly button center with two inches down or up? I realize that conventional thought is center mass more in the chest area, but how well does the lower trunk compare?

Hdtwice:

I've never served in law enforcement, only in the U.S. Army, so my training and experience is based on the military, rather than law enforcement. At the time of my training (Feb. 1975), the standard military issue weapon for most ground troops was the M-16/A-1 chambered in 5.56mm. These were equipped with iron sights only, and 20 round magazines were standard issue. We were taught to shoot to hit a man-sized/man shaped silhouette target out to 600 yards (sighting in was at 25 yards). I was lucky in that my Drill Sergeant saw that I had some ability with the M-16, and he would actually entertain some of my questions without resulting punishment. As an example, I was shocked to learn that at 600 yards, with a head/neck hold on the target, the round was expected to hit in the lower legs - "if you were lucky". None of the targets had any type of scoring rings on them. The idea was just to put bullet(s) on the target - anywhere on the target.

The U.S. Army in the mid-1970s was still using the "Quick kill" technique. This was a method of point shooting at man-sized targets at 20 meters and under. You were supposed to index the butt of the rifle under your chin, and not use your sights at all. In fact, they put masking tape over the front and rear sights during training to prevent their use. I was on my way to shooting "Expert", when I got tripped up by the "Quick kill" portion of our training. Try as I could, there was no way I could hit the target using "Quick kill". Finally, in exasperation, my Drill Sergeant asked how did I want to shoot the "Quick kill" targets? "With open sights and shouldering the piece like you're supposed to", was my response. Just to shut me up, he handed me a loaded magazine and told me to try - adding that I owed him 10 push-ups for every miss. I scored 20 out of 20 without any problems. When I asked the Drill Sergeant if I could continue to shoot the course using my method, instead of "Quick kill", he responded with "be my uh, guest".

Again, the objective was to put rounds on the target - anywhere on the target.

In real life, I've seen people who suffered fatal wounds, but in their remaining time, were still able to aggressively fight until they finally bled out. As others have mentioned, hits to the abdomen and lower extremities might eventually lead to a fatality. If you make hits to the abdomen you are, at best, looking at incapacitating your assailant until he/she succumbs due to shock and/or blood loss.

I've seen people who were excellent marksmen on the range. But introduce even a little bit of stress, and their skill level went south. If you are in a situation where you have to shoot someone to save or defend a human life, I think that putting your sights on the biggest part of them that is available and pulling the trigger is a good idea.

Good luck,

Dave

 

[AJ]

Hdtwice:


I've seen people who were excellent marksmen on the range. But introduce even a little bit of stress, and their skill level went south. If you are in a situation where you have to shoot someone to save or defend a human life, I think that putting your sights on the biggest part of them that is available and pulling the trigger is a good idea.

Good luck,

Dave

I shot with a police officer from Westminister, Calif., who consistently in practice and for qualification scored a perfect score of 300/300. He was a really good shot. Could never beat him. We all went to a competition, where we shot as a team. He shot for Westminister PD and I shot for Naval Station Long Beach Security. When the pressure was on in competition he shot a 289/300, Their team did not place......

 

[TomkinsSP]

The upper 2/3 of the skull contains the brain, eyes, ears, sinuses. The central half of the lower 1/3 contains the brainstem, critical artery and vein, tracea. One hit on any of these structures with a .357 diameter projectile, probably even a little 90 grainer*, will take Mr. Badguy out of the fight.

Obviously he won't be able to target you if his brain ceases to process, or if it has been disconnected from his spinal cord. But he also won't be able to target you if he can't see you, if he can't stand or focus from damage to his inner ear, if he is unable to respirate and or is drowning in his own blood.

*Plenty of humanoids hit by projectiles even as small as 32 grainers were put out of the fight in one shot to the head as well.

Obviously you shoot the best target you are presented with. I recall a situation where Mr. Badguy was shooting at Mr. Goodguy in a parking lot. Mr.G ducked down between parked cars and got flat. When Mr.B approched Mr.G's first, best, clear shot was an ankle. Hit, Mr. B went down, but was still armed. Mr.G then delivered a second shot that ended the situation.