Targeting on the body question

I see some Ayoob quotes and Cooper quotes, yet did either of these people ever have a shootout? I have not either. Having said that, I go along with the thoughts that training with stress is very good and getting any hits in a gunfight is a big plus. Keep training and refining those marksmanship skills and gun handling under pressure! If you have time and can choose where to place your shot with a handgun, you are in an unusual, but very desirable position. I had a buddy who was serving a warrant and got shot at with a shotgun. The shotgun round blew off his raid jacket collar, yet he still was able to return fire. His .45 ACP Federal HST round hit the perp in the thigh and didn't put him down. It took several rounds of 9mm from his partner to convince the bad guy to surrender. I consider my buddy to have done well to return fire and get a hit. The NYPD Stakeout Squad picked officers with competitive shooting and handgun hunting backgrounds. Jim Cirillo thought that that experience served the Squad well.
 
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BE Mike said:
I see some Ayoob quotes and Cooper quotes, yet did either of these people ever have a shootout? I have not either. Having said that, I go along with the thoughts that training with stress is very good and getting any hits in a gunfight is a big plus. Keep training and refining those marksmanship skills and gun handling under pressure! If you have time and can choose where to place your shot with a handgun, you are in an unusual, but very desirable position. I had a buddy who was serving a warrant and got shot at with a shotgun. The shotgun round blew off his raid jacket collar, yet he still was able to return fire. His .45 ACP Federal HST round hit the perp in the thigh and didn't put him down. It took several rounds of 9mm from his partner to convince the bad guy to surrender. I consider my buddy to have done well to return fire and get a hit. The NYPD Stakeout Squad picked officers with competitive shooting and handgun hunting backgrounds. Jim Cirillo thought that that experience served the Squad well.
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Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia

Massad Ayoob - Wikipedia

You train, train train.....until it is ingrained into your being. I trained as I was taught in the shooting courses I took. When I was teaching I personally fired 1000 rounds a week to keep my proficiency up. never shoot in front of your students and miss your shot.....it destroys your credibility. We shot a lot of man-on-man competition on steel targets. That is about as close as you can get to being in a gunfight with actually being in one, the adrenaline is up as you want to beat the other guy. I also shot any type of fast draw or tactical competition that I could find, including IPSC at the time. I still do speed drills when I can (just not as fast as 30 years ago).
 
TomkinsSP said:
I worry about where those 22 projectiles went. Since most of our family members, they live in houses situated very near or attached to our garages, I would worry that one of those stray rounds could find one of them, or a neighbor (or much less significantly something of mine in my house or garage).
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I'm more worried about the guy doing the shooting. He sounds like he could use a lot of work.

Let's pray that this is just a story, which I think it is. If it were true as posted, the shooter would have gone to jail.
 
AND.....

Arik said:
Center mass is where most of the important organs are. This is actually why you have a rib cage....to protect those important organs from every day things that may do harm to them. Shoot someone in the pelvic area may stop them from walking but not necessarily shooting back. In sure kneecapping hurts too

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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.....nerves and major blood vessels.
 
SA1911 said:
I'm more worried about the guy doing the shooting. He sounds like he could use a lot of work.

Let's pray that this is just a story, which I think it is. If it were true as posted, the shooter would have gone to jail.
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It is a true story. The intended victim was sharing the story to illustrate how his firearms instructors teaching to "MOVE". kept popping into his mind.

He did not go to jail.
 
My pap taught me to always shoot for the biggest target you can see and continue to shoot until the attacker gives up the gun . I've carried since I was too young to be legal and have had to pull my weapon 3 times in all these years . Not LE but I grew up in what ended up being an extremely rough section of that city.

First time was to stop a man from killing a woman in my front yard . He had her on the ground and had beat her pretty bad and as I walked out the door he put two rounds from a .32 auto into the ground beside her head . I was carrying a pistol but since I was just out the door I reached for the 16 ga pump that was just inside the door instead. As he was in the process of telling her how the next bullet was gonna be between her eyes I racked the slide and told him that would not be a good idea and that he had best lose the gun . He was smart and did . Just the threat of the 16 was enough and the police carted him away to be bailed out by the woman who's head he was pounding on . :eek:

#2

I was a bystander to a fight in a crowd . More or less minding my own business when I hear a shot and felt a burning pain in my left arm . Looked in the direction the sound came from and saw a guy ( only one besides me still standing at this point ) aiming a rather large semi auto pistol (.45 ) at me . As he fired his next shot (wild ) I pulled my Walther .380 and fired into his chest until he lost control of his weapon . Using Winchester Silvertip ammo . Four solid hits in the lung and he did survive but lost the use more or less of that lung . Whole time I was shooting I was hollering " Drop Your Weapon " . I think shock from the first hits kept him from being able to drop it before I had fired the second two of the four .


#3

Heard a noise outside the house one night and went to investigate . Was wearing a 9 mm m39 . As I went out the back door I saw a human form run out of the guy next doors tool shed , I hollered and told him I was calling the police . He got gone in a hurry but his buddy still in the tool shed came out and threw a wild shot in my direction . I fired two shots at him ( easy target as he was wearing a white T shirt ) both shots hit him in the rump and knocked him off his feet but he jumped up and ran . Police got him at the hospital . Turns out he fired over his shoulder as he was running away but it was dark and all I saw was that muzzle flash and the white T shirt.

First two were under the influence . Third one was just stupid and ended up being eliminated from the gene pool by someone else not too long afterwards . First situation required no shot to resolve , second and third were thankfully resolved without any fatalities . With a more aggressive or doped adversary the outcome could have been different .


Eddie

PS : I took a .32 S&W Long Lubaloy slug in the area in question , lower right side of my belly button just above my junk . It hurt like hell but I was no where near incapacitated . Guy turned to run off and I hit him with a tire Iron I had grabbed out of the shop class . He had been trying to steal a radio out of a car in the school parking lot. Me and another guy chased him , he stopped and shot ( about 15 feet away ) , I hit him (thrown) with the tire iron as he ran off . If I had had a gun at school that day I would have killed him . Still got the slug .
 
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In my career I saw many gunshot victims and was present twice when police officers shot and killed suspects. Some basic truths I absorbed:

-- In almost all shooting situations you will be confronted with e threat RIGHT NOW and will react instinctively, which likely means non-aimed point shooting. If you focus center mass you MAY connect with half of your shots, but there is virtually no way you will be able to accurately hit any specific body parts.

-- Very few people when shot will fall to the ground immediately, and only those with major catastrophic head wounds will fall dead instantly. Even some with ultimately fatal wounds may fight, flee, converse, etc. for some time until blood loss and shock bring them to a stop.

-- Even if you aim well there is no way to be sure where your bullet(s) will go. I recall a case where a guy fired a .22 into the pavement in front of an opponent, largely to scare him, then was charged with murder after the bullet bounced up into his groin, severing the femoral artery. I once chatted with a guy with a clean round bullet hole right between his eyes, after he was shot from about three feet during an argument over a domino game. At the ER the docs showed us how the round had slid along his skull over the top of his head and exited from the rear of his scalp. Total injury one headache.

-- IN short both bullets and people who are shot don't always, or even often, conform to rules or expectations. The old self defense formula still applies -- if you are in a situation where your life is threatened, shoot as fast as you can at the bad guy and keep shooting until the threat ends.
 
Under stress we will resort to whatever we PRACTICE.

In order to practice correctly, we need some training. Otherwise we're just ingraining bad habits. If you take one class and learn a lot of good stuff, but don't practice what you learned, you'll not be able to apply it when it counts.
 
Rastoff said:
Under stress we will resort to whatever we PRACTICE.

In order to practice correctly, we need some training. Otherwise we're just ingraining bad habits. If you take one class and learn a lot of good stuff, but don't practice what you learned, you'll not be able to apply it when it counts.
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They are certainly perishable skills. Practice, practice, practice.
 
mbok said:
In my career I saw many gunshot victims and was present twice when police officers shot and killed suspects. Some basic truths I absorbed:

-- In almost all shooting situations you will be confronted with e threat RIGHT NOW and will react instinctively, which likely means non-aimed point shooting. If you focus center mass you MAY connect with half of your shots, but there is virtually no way you will be able to accurately hit any specific body parts.

-- Very few people when shot will fall to the ground immediately, and only those with major catastrophic head wounds will fall dead instantly. Even some with ultimately fatal wounds may fight, flee, converse, etc. for some time until blood loss and shock bring them to a stop.

-- Even if you aim well there is no way to be sure where your bullet(s) will go. I recall a case where a guy fired a .22 into the pavement in front of an opponent, largely to scare him, then was charged with murder after the bullet bounced up into his groin, severing the femoral artery. I once chatted with a guy with a clean round bullet hole right between his eyes, after he was shot from about three feet during an argument over a domino game. At the ER the docs showed us how the round had slid along his skull over the top of his head and exited from the rear of his scalp. Total injury one headache.

-- IN short both bullets and people who are shot don't always, or even often, conform to rules or expectations. The old self defense formula still applies -- if you are in a situation where your life is threatened, shoot as fast as you can at the bad guy and keep shooting until the threat ends.
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Yet, I remember seeing an interview with a LEO where he was shooting fast and not getting hits. He said, once he started looking at the sights, he began to get hits. Point shooting works at very close ranges, if practiced. Otherwise, sight alignment is better. Trigger control is tops with both methods.
 
Rastoff said:
Under stress we will resort to whatever we PRACTICE.

In order to practice correctly, we need some training. Otherwise we're just ingraining bad habits. If you take one class and learn a lot of good stuff, but don't practice what you learned, you'll not be able to apply it when it counts.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of that depends on how accurate your practice mirrors reality.
 
Well the easiest way to sum up performance under pressure is... if you over train and over practice to the point of superior mastery, your skills increase under stress. If you adequately train to just meet a goal or under train, you under perform with stress stimulus. These are simple learning and behavioral principals. The type of action is not relevant. It can be artistic, communicative, athletic, perceptual or any combination.

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Gunfightin' ain't a dance step you learn.

Shooting skills, if not sharpen from time to time,
leaves me with that feeling of unpreparedness.

I've always felt that any round that cuts meat, was a good start to a successful finish.
My past experiences have taught me to 'use enough gun' to start with.

A close friend once told me of a fight he had personal knowledge of,
where two individuals were having a shoot out, both were using cover, a refrigerator.....

The same refrigerator!!!


.
 
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TomkinsSP said:
If you CAN avoid a fight, you probably should, but you could be in a place where flight or cover is not an option, or you could be with children, infirm or elderly people you have to defend.
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Yep, I could be on Mars looking at Venus.

The primary rule of gun fighting, the dominant rule of gun fighting is: avoidance is the only sure way of survival.
 
Sol-Invictus said:
Well the easiest way to sum up performance under pressure is... if you over train and over practice to the point of superior mastery, your skills increase under stress. If you adequately train to just meet a goal or under train, you under perform with stress stimulus. These are simple learning and behavioral principals. The type of action is not relevant. It can be artistic, communicative, athletic, perceptual or any combination.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You are talking about muscle memory , the only way to train Nerve to the point that you can really depend on that muscle training is to expose yourself to that which you are unnerved by ( Gettin Shot At in this situation ) and nobody I know is willing to train for that . Being shot at ain't a sport . Not saying training ain't good and much needed but I am saying it will only get you so far .

If I got to bet my life on a guy with tons of training but not much nerve or one with hardly any training but all the nerve in the world you can put my bet on the latter . Next time you train get somebody to shoot at you and see how that works out for you . :D

Eddie
 
No. You have to look at my previous statement about training.

When under stress, you will fall back on how you practiced. This doesn't matter if that practice matches reality closely or not.
 
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