I am Concerned about AR15 Home Defense

[Wee Hooker]

Of the 3, I'd pick the 12 ga shotgun ( with a mounted light). Load it with #4 buck and it will have plenty of knockdown power without fears of over penetration.

 

[MichiganScott]

Brick or not, there must be windows somewhere. What if the line of fire lines up with the neighbor's window too?

We all want to be safe, but how can you ensure 100% that a stray projectile won't go where it isn't supposed to go?

The only way to ensure 100 % that a stray projectile will not go where it isn't supposed to go is to never pull the trigger.

 

[MistWolf]

I go to gun store to buy ammo, and the salesperson says "you know you can kill your neighbor if that AR15 bullet leave your house, and it will".

The 5.56 has less penetration through house walls than pistol bullets, buckshot or slugs.

My wife have a 12 gauge shot gun with flashlight.

Your wife will be safer and more effective with an AR than a shotgun. Why...?

1. Do you recommend AR15 for home defense?

Yes.
1)Easier to place precise shots than a shotgun or pistol.
2)Much lower recoil than a shotgun.
3)Faster follow up shots.
4)Better capacity.
5)Easier to reload or clear malfunctions than a shotgun.
6)Good terminal performance even with FMJ ammo.

 

[goodoboy]

I respect your desire to be adequately armed in the event of a home intrusion. You will probably garner as many opinions on this topic as there are forum members.

I too wrestled with the issue of over-penetration because I and my neighbors live in wood-frame houses. I own both an AR-15 and an M1-carbine, neither of which I consider suitable for home defense with so many innocents in close proximity. I feel fully protected with either a 9mm or .45 ACP at my bedside. However, I have studied my lanes of fire and I know in which directions I can't fire. If you go with the AR-15, consider an explosive varmint load which expands quickly and violently.

Often overlooked in a home defense scenario is the shotgun loaded with #4 buck. These pellets, each .22 caliber, are far less likely to penetrate several layers of home construction to reach neighbors. Even #4 shot, a turkey load, is super deadly at very close range and even less likely than #4 buck to cause havoc outside the home. I would avoid rifled slugs, "O" and "OO" buck in a suburban environment.

I'm not a lawyer but I think that if a bullet left your home to strike an innocent, you would not be charged with murder. Police officers have killed hundreds of bystanders over the years and are not charged.

federali,

I really appreciate your thoughtful and simple comments. I am currently reseraching the correct ammo for my shotgun as I am leaning toward the shotgun as primary defense for now, then AR15 (big maybe) (at a position where I know if I miss the intruder, there is about 4 layers of sheetrock) that bullet(s) has to go through to leave my house and injure someone. For me, its safety first for the innocent.

Also, there is lots of youtube videos proving that a shotgun using #4 (or more) birdshot ammo will not penetrate many walls and definitely not leave the house.

Thanks for the AR15 ammo suggestion.

 

[goodoboy]

The 5.56 has less penetration through house walls than pistol bullets, buckshot or slugs.

MistWolf,

Thanks for the response.

Can you please provide video evidence (youtube, etc.) that proves with visual evidence using an AR15 with XXX ammo will not penetrate through multiple sheetrocks?

I have clearly seen youtube videos of buckshots for shotgun not penetrating house walls. Nothing for AR15 yet.

 

[goodoboy]

No... if it won't penetrate sheetrock, it won't stop a bad guy. What it should do though is start to fragment and lose energy after hitting sheetrock, so that it won't penetrate through the exterior brick and into your neighbors home.

cyphertext,

Thanks for explaining. I understand now.

 

[MistWolf]

MistWolf,

Thanks for the response.

Can you please provide video evidence (youtube, etc.) that proves with visual evidence using an AR15 with XXX ammo will not penetrate through multiple sheetrocks?

I have clearly seen youtube videos of buckshots for shotgun not penetrating house walls. Nothing for AR15 yet.

Check out Box O' Truth for tests with shotgun, pistol and AR rounds through drywall.

It's not that I think the shotgun is a bad choice for house defense, it's just that the advantages of the AR over the shotgun are overwhelming.

 

[goodoboy]

Of the 3, I'd pick the 12 ga shotgun ( with a mounted light). Load it with #4 buck and it will have plenty of knockdown power without fears of over penetration.

Thanks Wee Hooker, this is what I am leading to for first line of defense. 12 gauge, #4 buckshot or #2 birdshot. With a streamline flashlight with pressure switch.

 

[goodoboy]

Check out Box O' Truth for tests with shotgun, pistol and AR rounds through drywall.

It's not that I think the shotgun is a bad choice for house defense, it's just that the advantages of the AR over the shotgun are overwhelming.

Thanks MistWolf for the comments.

I definetly agree AR would be better over a shotgun, but not at the risk of me going to jail for harming or killing my neighbor. I am curious to what ammo they used during the test with that shotgun.

 

[vipermd]

OP: Did you read the links from Shawn McCarver?, the posts by Cyphertext & MistWolf? Actual testing with real guns and real bullets? So if you did then why choose a shotgun? More recoil, Concussive effect, more difficult to fire follow up shot? I am not saying you are wrong, I just am trying to understand why when facts not opinions are presented, you seemed to follow opinion? Confusing. I hope neither you/your family ever have the need to defend yourself, and getting information on what may be the "safest" choice of defense is a good idea, but that still brings me back to facts VS opinion. Curiosity? Be Safe,

 

[hdwhit]

Brick or not, there must be windows somewhere. What if the line of fire lines up with the neighbor's window too?

We all want to be safe, but how can you ensure 100% that a stray projectile won't go where it isn't supposed to go?

Nobody can. But then they can't ensure a ricochet won't stray where it isn't supposed to go. This is why the responsible gun owner has liability insurance.

Check your homeowner's policy; most include some general liability coverage, but make sure it covers the civil liability associated with your gun's use. If not, buy third-party insurance. It is not legal to insure against criminal liability, so focus on protection against civil liability.

I know some "insurance" programs claim to protect against criminal liability, but that's actually illegal in most jurisdictions. The "insurance" programs are often programs in which the insurance company voluntarily provides trial support.

 

[Imissedagain]

Train big dogs and get a/another short barreled shotgun in the interim.
I would leave a Security Six with two handloaded shot shells up front followed by four TFMJs behind whenever I wasn’t home.

New safer neighborhood is prudent and a good goal.... as I advised a buddy decades ago...... or sleep with a class III on your chest as opposed to under the bed.

 

[WR Moore]

Lotta good advice above and a few things better ignored. I'll try to summarize.

Drywall penetration-the only thing I've found to be stopped by drywall is a .177 pellet at ~300 f/s. Yes, anything suitable for defensive use, and some stuff that isn't, will penetrate drywall with enough energy left to do serious bodily injury. Do work out those lines of fire that create an unreasonable risk of exiting the house/endangering others in the house. Commit them to memory.

The light varmint bullets in .223/5.56 mm (40-50 gr) that do so well in limiting penetration also present problems when dealing with attackers who are on the large side. Also if you have to shoot through chance obstacles like an arm. Most of those who use the cartridge seriously have gone up in bullet weight and work hard on not missing. We're talking a range of feet generally.

The 1-9 inch twist will stabilize the Hornaday 75 gr HPBT. It does penetrate chance obstacles still perform properly.

Use of the rifle in a confined space without adequate hearing protection will result in permanent hearing damage. So will the other firearms, but the loss will not be as bad.

While I agree that the handgun is the most versatile choice, I've done some handgun drills with a carbine. Most folks will do those drills faster and with better shot placement with the carbine. HOWEVER, at really close range the handgun is a better choice.

 

[C J]

I actually bought an AR because they are safer than handguns or shotguns when it comes to over-penetration. I use Hornady TAP Urban rounds and I live pretty far from my neighbors. I also have a safe zone to retreat to and a firing zone that is backed up by a wall that has dirt all the way up behind that. That's the kind of thing that will protect you in court too. You did the best you could to avoid shooting someone.

 

[humbll]

There is always frangible ammo, i don't know if i am allowed to post links in this forum so i won't, but if you go to ammoseek dot com and select rifle, 223 caliber and under advanced options under the INCLUDE field type FRANGIBLE, you will see one of the listings from brownells dot com toward the bottom of the list. The following is from the description:

"Hollow Point Frangible (HPF) projectiles separate on impact for devastating stopping power and 100% energy transfer to target. Lead-free and California-compliant, with lighter weight design to keep you on target when all hell breaks loose."

NOTE: I have never used or tested this stuff or seen this ammo tested, and if you decide to trust your life to it you should definitely test it out thoroughly.

 

[goodoboy]

There is always frangible ammo, i don't know if i am allowed to post links in this forum so i won't, but if you go to ammoseek dot com and select rifle, 223 caliber and under advanced options under the INCLUDE field type FRANGIBLE, you will see one of the listings from brownells dot com toward the bottom of the list. The following is from the description:

"Hollow Point Frangible (HPF) projectiles separate on impact for devastating stopping power and 100% energy transfer to target. Lead-free and California-compliant, with lighter weight design to keep you on target when all hell breaks loose."

NOTE: I have never used or tested this stuff or seen this ammo tested, and if you decide to trust your life to it you should definitely test it out thoroughly.

Thank you for this

 

[TomkinsSP]

Local law enforcement around here use AR type Carbines and 5.56 Speer Gold Dots. If I were to use a 5.56 AR for home defense, I would start there. (1) Someone performed some sort of at least cursory examination of options avalible. (2) Not being an expert, you put your trust in the product used by your local contabulary. Should be difficult for an ADA to second guess.

 

[hkcavalier]

Soft penetration (wood, plaster, flesh, bone) is and has always been a function of bullet construction and momentum. Big, heavy, tough bullets like >= .375 bronze solids at medium velocities will smash through just about anything. Small projectiles that get their energy from velocity punch armor but not large quantities of soft barriers or tissue.

I personally wouldn't want ANY centerfire rifle for indoor work without prepping my ears first. Lots of country folks have a rifle or two by the door, but that's for threats/critters outside. I choose a long barreled 9mm pistol (Glock 34) myself.

 

[MistWolf]

I corresponded with an expert on terminal performance, Dr. GK Roberts. According to the tests he performed, frangible ammo is not good for self defense. Doc's tests also show that birdshot is a poor choice and #4 buckshot as a minimum.

goodoboy, I'm starting to feel like I'm casting pearls before swine. It's your money, it's your life. I've given a few fish and tried to point you in a direction to learn to fish for yourself. Read the following-

http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/Terminal_Ballistic_Performance.pdf

Let your wife shoot the AR. Then let her shoot the shotgun and see which she prefers. I bet you a box of bullets, or shells, she'll prefer the recoil of the AR.

 

[WR Moore]

The "frangible" ammo mentioned above is powdered copper bonded into a bullet. It's expensive, hard to find and has caused some spectacular failures in Mforgeries (carbines) due to fragmentation of the bullet in the feed cycle. Brand of ammo in those cases unknown at this time (pre-retirement, could have told you). This ammo was originally developed to allow safe use of steel targets at close range in training. One noted manufacturer of the stuff features a video of one of their staff sawing a 4x4 in half with the ammo. There was at least one version specifically developed for use where putting holes in metal piping or pressure vessels would not be a good thing. Not gonna be drywall safe.

Supposedly, the Federal Ammo version exits drywall as very small fragments unlikely to cause serious bodily injury. Personally, I'd pass. I'd also pass on the never-heard-of-them at Brownells.

Now, Barnes makes a jacketed version of this type of bullet to ensure bullet integrity in the M4 feed cycle. It's called the RRLP for reduced ricochet, limited penetration. I've no idea who may load this bullet and if it's commercially available as loaded ammo. I expect someone loads it for the military. OTOH, it would appear to be California green as a lead free projectile.

I've loaded the bullet and tested it. It's accurate, stabilizes in the 1-9 twist, does no damage to rifle rated steel targets even at 25 yards and appears quite effective on tissue simulant. However, it tumbles but stays intact going through drywall.