I am Concerned about AR15 Home Defense
- Thread starter goodoboy
- Start date
Thanks I appreciate it. Yes, I am tired of talking about this stuff. Honestly.
Here is my plan and I am done with it. Its too complicated for me and I am tired of reading. I just want to know what bullet to buy to have less penetration of going through about 4 sheet rocks and possible exterior brick and travel and NOT hit the neighbor house about 20 yards away. Simple.
1. Go buy me a Mossberg 88 12 Guage. Get me streamlight flashlight, and red dot. Get maybe a #8 birdshot ammot or #4Buck shot. Both of these I know (I seen video) will not travel far through layers of shotgun.
2. Finish modifying my AR15 for home defense with flashlight, pressure switch, and good open view red dot. Buy some i-dont-know-yet home defense ammo.
3. Go to range with all 3 guns (pistol, 12 gauge, AR15) and practice and practice atleast once a month with wife.
4. Done.
If someone breaks in for now. They come in my door room, I blow them away with the shotgun first. Wife shoot the AR15 or 9mm if more intruders come in. The AR15 will be there loaded and ready to go if needed. Period. But the shotgun will be my primary home defense. The AR15 just sounds like tooo much work for researching the right bullet and tooo much risk and loud noise. But I already bought it so might as well enjoy it.
My backstop for this position is about 4 layers of sheet rock and possible exterior brick (depends on the shot position). Now I move on to the case of what if wife is cooking in kitchen and finding backstop for the 9mm.
Done.
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TomkinsSP
Member
Local Police use 5.56 Gold Dots in thier ARs. I can't say exactly why they chose Gold Dots over another ammo, but it does seem reasonable to follow thier lead if you are not an expert on the subject. And it makes your choices reasonable and appropriate should you ever have to defend your home.
Need some help with terminology.
Hornadyle.com - 55 gr. TAP URBAN(R)
1. What does "when the probability for barrier penetration is low" mean?
2. What does " prevents over penetration on non-barrier engagement mean? Does this mean less change of bullet exiting the body?
3. What does " this bullet a great choice when collateral risk is high." mean?
4. What does barrier penetration mean?
5. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo On this link, what does "If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them" mean? and what does "If barrier penetration IS an important factor" mean?
Thanks
Hornadyle.com - 55 gr. TAP URBAN(R)
1. What does "when the probability for barrier penetration is low" mean?
2. What does " prevents over penetration on non-barrier engagement mean? Does this mean less change of bullet exiting the body?
3. What does " this bullet a great choice when collateral risk is high." mean?
4. What does barrier penetration mean?
5. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo On this link, what does "If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them" mean? and what does "If barrier penetration IS an important factor" mean?
Thanks
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This video shows the different characteristics of a 5.56, a 9mm, and buckshot. While the 5.56 penetrates "slightly" more than the 9mm and the buckshot it does a lot more damage in the first few walls which means it will do a lot more damage to tissue. Note the 9mm did not expand. The shotgun did more damage and I did formerly use a 12 ga. for home defense there are a couple of things that matter a lot IMO.
First the noise of a 5.56 is not going to be as loud as a 12 ga. which means you might actually get to keep your hearing "if" you have enough sense to be wearing very effective hearing protection in your house. There are ear muffs that actually amplify all noise except gun shot noise. I keep them right beside my gun. You will wish you had something if you fire a gun indoors, believe me. The 9mm will not be as effective at stopping an intruder as a 5.56. Plus you most likely have more of a problem with ricochets with a 9mm due to the fact they don't fragment like a 5.56 round.
Also I believe drywall is a very poor medium to test over penetration. It is very soft and fragile compared to the bricks on the outside of your home and whatever might possibly be on the house next door. Tests need to be done with bricks or other material where results may be very different. I found another video where a brick wall was simulated. Both the 9mm and the 5.56 failed to penetrate the brick wall. The 12 ga. with buckshot destroyed the wall and clearly went beyond but the test didn't show how much beyond. Still that was the only test I've ever seen where they used a brick wall simulation. I include a link to that test. I will say I think the buckshot they used was extremely powerful. It has a 1600 fps speed while most buckshot is under 1300 fps.
In my particular situation I have a safe room and a zone where firing is going to be very safe compared to firing in a house very close to another house. My house is built back into a hill so that the back of the house is surrounded by dirt. And the structure behind the walls is not just a stud wall with drywall. It's 12 inch concrete blocks and behind that is a big wall of dirt. The only way a bullet would escape would be to ricochet (which slows it down) and then penetrate my front wall which has a stone exterior. And the nearest house in the line of sight is about 250 yards away. It just isn't likely for me.
A 5.56 has other advantages over a shotgun. It holds 30 rounds over the 6 my shotgun holds and even with the ammo in a sidesaddle holder that only gives me 11 rounds. That certainly would likely be enough. But there's also the recoil. My wife can fire the AR with no problems. She isn't likely to do nearly as well with a 12 ga. using buckshot.
There is a lot to be said for a shotgun. And I do have shotguns. I also keep a .45 near where I sleep because it's easier to get access to it. But it will be used to defend my movement toward my AR. I have a bright light mounted on the AR also which should blind any attacker. But you never know when a truly psychotic person might attack you whether from natural causes or drug induced. People can be very hard to stop when they aren't aware they are being hurt. I once shot a rabid fox 8 times in yhr head at point blank range with a .22 and it walked away. I was literally using the barrel of the gun to keep it away from me and I had the barrel about an inch from it's head. I shot it twice more with a 20 ga. shotgun and it didn't even flinch much less die. Finally a 12 ga. killed it. I want something I can be sure will disable a person in a mental state close to that of the rabid fox. A sensible person will withdraw at the first shot. A crazy person is liable to do anything and both me and my wife need to be able to keep shooting until the job is done.
Here's the video of the drywall test I mentioned before.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE[/ame]
Here's the video of the brick wall test.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lkUvixtRVw[/ame]
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Collateral risk means innocent people are around.
Means goes through the barriers explained in questions 1 & 2 and will still expand as designed. Note: the barriers in question are those used in the FBI ammo tests. These include auto glass, 3/4 inch plywood and a simulated auto body metal panel.
Stabilize means the rifling twist in your rifle will rotate the bullet at a rate that allows the bullet to fly straight. A rifling twist too slow for the length/weight of the bullet will result in the bullet tumbling in as little as 25 yards. Where it's gonna land is a guess. 1-9 rifling twist will stabilize the Horanaday 75 gr HPBT match bullet, it will NOT stabilize the A-Max version of the same bullet weight. Hornaday went to plastic tipped bullets in their current law enforcement ammunition. No idea if 1-9 twist will stabilize them (at 75 grains, 55 should be no problem). The plain HPBT is still available in another ammunition line.
If barrier penetration is not an issue suggests the bullet is not designed to penetrate barriers without degradation of performance.
Barrier blind is ammo you can use to shoot through the barriers and still effectively perform as designed.
DUDE! You're way overthinking this. Ain't no 5.56 ammo you're gonna find isn't gonna go through daywall. Even two complete walls (4 sheets drywall). NONE (that's not military specialty ammo) of it is gonna go through a brick.
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Thank you so much CJ.
You mentioned vrry good points. My 17 year old daughter is upstairs on 2nd floor and wife and I are 1st floor. We all have ear plugs near by.
I do plan to get a shotgun, just because I want one and I have to leave my safe zone where I am with my ar15. It all depends on the situation. The shotgun will probably have birdshot or #4 buck shot ammo. Haven't decided yet as overpenetration incase of a miss shot occurs and leaves the window.
This week we will looking for safe zones to position ourselves incase intruder at night or day and a safe place to shoot where if we miss the shot the bullet will not over penerrata and leave the house. It's going to be some work because 9mm will be used as well. And we do have windows.
Thank you for the details. I want to be sure I thourghly understand barrier terminology so I can make good decisions and teach my family. I wasn't raised with guns.
Just to be sure I understand.
Low Barrier penetration means the bullet has low chance of exiting the body, wood, limb, wall, etc?
What's is non barriers?
cybermgk
US Veteran
Tests routinely show even turkey shot at in home ranges penetrating up to 11 pieces of drywall.
cybermgk
US Veteran
I just don't agree. Tests show more than enough tissue damage and penetration.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28[/ame]
See what a varmint round does through denim, ribs and to a pork shoulder behind both.
This, is really what it comes down to. Misses will penetrate walls. Though I will say, typical handgun rounds, even HP rounds are going to do a lot more of that then a 40gr Varmint round in a 223/5/56 carbine. What can yu make those hits with. Versatility of the handgun, only comes into play for most, imho, us when clearing a home. But, if you're holing up in a back room, as OP's plan, it comes down to more, what can you guarantee you can make more than one hit on the bad guy(s).
Non-barrier means there's no obstacle between the gun muzzle and the target.
Low barrier penetration means the bullet doesn't penetrate the listed barriers well AND STILL PERFORM AS DESIGNED. Does not mean won't go through interior walls and still have enough energy to cause serious bodily injury. The human body is not a barrier.
cybermgk-scientific tests (which a pork shoulder isn't) are used to allow direct performance comparisons between different projectiles. They are not predictive of real world performance. The real world has not been impressed with the performance of the light bullets on extra large economy size felons. Especially when the bullets hit limbs of the body enroute to the torso.
I don't recall what .223 round Edmundo Mirales got shot in the left forearm with, but it didn't reach the torso. Did do horrendous damage to his arm but he still killed Platt & Mattix in the infamous FBI Miami gunfight.
Hasn't been real kind to the idea of birdshot loaded shotgun as a general practice either.
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I really thank everyone for the help.
Recall my initial concern was what happen if I miss the intruder(s) with a AR15 223/556 ammo and what the chance of hitting my neighbor home.
To answer my own question, the real question is what is my backstop when I shoot the intruder and where in the house will I be located.
After alot reading, watching youtube videos, thinking, and reviewing my backstop and home defense strategy, using my AR and my safe zone the bullet will need to penetrate 8 sheetrock walls and maybe my brick exterior of my home before exiting to the neighbor property about 20 yards away and maybe hitting his truck or car.
From watching this video [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28&feature=youtu.be[/ame] and reading this wall test .223 Drywall Penetration: Results, and reviewing my safe zone position and the back stops, I feel that the Fiocchi 40-grain VMax is the only ammo I will be using in my SW M&P Sport II. Both reference show the bullet is fragmented in small metal after leaving the 6 wall.
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo I felt that this website was way too complicated to read and far too many options and too much fancy words for the common person to understand. All I want to know if which bullets will less likely penetrate "all" sheetrock and exit the house through a window or door and harm someone.
Regarding if Fiocchi 40-grain VMax is enough penetrate to reach vital organs,..., I will shoot more then once.
Regarding shotgun, yes I am getting a shotgun as well. Maybe #4 buckshot. I have to do the same research with the shotgun and 9mm. I think the best solution is to identify where in your home is the best place to shoot with the AR or handgun regardless of ammo test and don't chase down the intruder, let them come to you.
My next step is to find the best metal plate to behind the wall of my safe zone just to be extra sure if I miss the bullet penetrate through the metal plate (hidden behind a picture frame). Protecting my neighbors is just that important to me. Maybe after this I will move up to 55gr or 60gr for more of a lethal shot, but for now until I find metal plate that can absorb the bullet, I'm sticking with Fiocchi 40-grain VMax
I appreciate any comments.
Recall my initial concern was what happen if I miss the intruder(s) with a AR15 223/556 ammo and what the chance of hitting my neighbor home.
To answer my own question, the real question is what is my backstop when I shoot the intruder and where in the house will I be located.
After alot reading, watching youtube videos, thinking, and reviewing my backstop and home defense strategy, using my AR and my safe zone the bullet will need to penetrate 8 sheetrock walls and maybe my brick exterior of my home before exiting to the neighbor property about 20 yards away and maybe hitting his truck or car.
From watching this video [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28&feature=youtu.be[/ame] and reading this wall test .223 Drywall Penetration: Results, and reviewing my safe zone position and the back stops, I feel that the Fiocchi 40-grain VMax is the only ammo I will be using in my SW M&P Sport II. Both reference show the bullet is fragmented in small metal after leaving the 6 wall.
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo I felt that this website was way too complicated to read and far too many options and too much fancy words for the common person to understand. All I want to know if which bullets will less likely penetrate "all" sheetrock and exit the house through a window or door and harm someone.
Regarding if Fiocchi 40-grain VMax is enough penetrate to reach vital organs,..., I will shoot more then once.
Regarding shotgun, yes I am getting a shotgun as well. Maybe #4 buckshot. I have to do the same research with the shotgun and 9mm. I think the best solution is to identify where in your home is the best place to shoot with the AR or handgun regardless of ammo test and don't chase down the intruder, let them come to you.
My next step is to find the best metal plate to behind the wall of my safe zone just to be extra sure if I miss the bullet penetrate through the metal plate (hidden behind a picture frame). Protecting my neighbors is just that important to me. Maybe after this I will move up to 55gr or 60gr for more of a lethal shot, but for now until I find metal plate that can absorb the bullet, I'm sticking with Fiocchi 40-grain VMax
I appreciate any comments.
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Westie1
Member
Posted this before, but I think it's good to repost. More of a real word type of test. Not the scientific tests that a lot of people like to cite. A real house was used.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbdmQ5IN2j0&t=1s[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbdmQ5IN2j0&t=1s[/ame]
As someone posted above everyone here will have a different opinion.... some will have 2 or 3 
That said all I can add are my choices....................
A full size S&W M&P 9mm with a light. 17+1
A Mossburg 510 youth model 20 gauge w/ #4 buckshot. 3+1 plus 5 more on the stock..... 3 buck & 2 slugs. Anyone in the family can use this gun.
Whatever I'm carrying that day.... generally a 3913 or 6906 9mm
If I've got time or have an extended engagement ..... both of which are unlikely; a Beretta CX4 9mm pistol caliber carbine...... shorter (29" OAL) and lighter than an AR; 15-30 round factory magazines ...... with a red dot and light.....
get a set of electronic ear muffs
That said all I can add are my choices....................
A full size S&W M&P 9mm with a light. 17+1
A Mossburg 510 youth model 20 gauge w/ #4 buckshot. 3+1 plus 5 more on the stock..... 3 buck & 2 slugs. Anyone in the family can use this gun.
Whatever I'm carrying that day.... generally a 3913 or 6906 9mm
If I've got time or have an extended engagement ..... both of which are unlikely; a Beretta CX4 9mm pistol caliber carbine...... shorter (29" OAL) and lighter than an AR; 15-30 round factory magazines ...... with a red dot and light.....
get a set of electronic ear muffs
Thank you for posting this it was very informational.
From the video, I was surprised to see the bullets (ball ammo and not the recommended soft tip for home defense) did not exit the house.
Then at the end of the video he shows the house walls have wood on both sides of the sheetrock. The home is a old house and NOT a newer home where there is NOT wood between the sheet rock. So this video is kind of basis in my opinion. But still good information.
They should did this video again in a newer home WITHOUT wood between the sheet rock.
I have to stick with 40gr for now until proven otherwise and making sure 1) I don't miss 2) if I miss the bullet will have to go through about 6 walls before the bullet degrades and NOT leave the worst case scenario, a window in my home, and travel to the neighbor house and harm them through their window. My hope is that if that happens, the bullet would have fragmented in smaller sizes that it will tumble down somewhere by the time it leaves my window
In my opinion, the correct ammo for ar15 home defense is not the bullet, it's what behind and where will the bullet go if you miss. The same case for the 9mm.
I would like to be debated from anyone who think otherwise, I could be wrong. But from what i see on YouTube if you use 55 gr or higher you better sure if you miss there is enough wall to stop that bullet from traveling out your home.
This is why, in my humble opinion, a shotgun is much better for home defense for the typical person , I am now researching what ammo for a 12 gauge mossberg 18 will not penetrate multiple walls if I miss from about 5-8 yards. So far my, I see 7.5 birdshot will work. I need to see now if #4 buckshot will travel through multiple walls.
In other words, if someone ask me what to use for home defense, from my current knowledge and simplicity, use a shotgun. What ammo with shotgun, depends on your living arrangement and how many walls if you miss. Get birdshot ammo.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Problem is, if you follow your own advice, your humble opinion is likely to get you killed... and your current knowledge is at a very low level.
Anything that is going to penetrate deep enough to hit vitals is going to go through sheetrock... and multiple pieces. You have to hit vitals to stop a threat.
Watch this video and tell me that a shotgun with birdshot is a good idea... You can fast forward to about the 1:10 mark to see the part that is applicable.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_KuFzjOGA"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_KuFzjOGA[/ame]
Thanks cyphertext for response and video.
The only question is , how many walls will the ammo penetrate in a home? As a home owner I need to know when I fire my weapon where will the bullet go and have idea how many walls the bullet will pass through.
Do you have a video or documentation that shows which 12 gauge shotgun ammo is recommended to hit vital organs or gel testing, then count the number of dry wall the ammo pass through before tumbling or degrading?
Do you have a video or documentation that shows which 12 gauge shotgun ammo pass through multiple walls when the shooter MISSED the target and then stop penetrating?
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REM 3200
US Veteran
IMO, this can not be stressed enough. Birdshot is for birds, not
for a threat that, if not stopped, is going to do you serious harm
or kill you. #4 Buck at a minimum, #1, 0 or 00 Buck are better,
for those situations.
