model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge
- Thread starter CEra
- Start date
chamber ring, reaming, relining
Thank you for so much interest in helping me solve this problem. The posts quoted below seem to be related so I'll reply with them together.
In addition to the suggestions here, someone at the range suggested relining the barrel. Someone else said he would bring his dremel with a felt brush and polishing compound.
I've researched these suggestions. Here's my take:
- Relining seems like a last resort, similar to buying a new barrel.
- Reaming seems to not only remove lead deposits but also barrel material. Is that true? Do I want to do that to a match/target barrel?
- Depending on what polishing compound is used, I think that could also remove barrel material. Same questions as for reaming.
I think this is the first time I read here that the ring in the chamber shouldn't be there. Same for the cartridges not dropping all the way into the chamber. I think it makes sense to concentrate on this first. Would soaking the barrel in something (what?) help prior to scrubbing? Putting a bore brush on a drill sounds like an easy way. Aside from ensuring only the brush contacts the bore, it there anything else I need to be aware of to avoid damage?
Regarding the other barrel, I only fired 10 rounds through it so I can't yet conclude my barrel is the problem. I'll be at the range in a few days and plan to inspect it for a ring in the chamber, see if rounds drop into the chamber, and also fire hundreds of rounds through it. That will provide three new data points.
Thank you for so much interest in helping me solve this problem. The posts quoted below seem to be related so I'll reply with them together.
In addition to the suggestions here, someone at the range suggested relining the barrel. Someone else said he would bring his dremel with a felt brush and polishing compound.
I've researched these suggestions. Here's my take:
- Relining seems like a last resort, similar to buying a new barrel.
- Reaming seems to not only remove lead deposits but also barrel material. Is that true? Do I want to do that to a match/target barrel?
- Depending on what polishing compound is used, I think that could also remove barrel material. Same questions as for reaming.
I think this is the first time I read here that the ring in the chamber shouldn't be there. Same for the cartridges not dropping all the way into the chamber. I think it makes sense to concentrate on this first. Would soaking the barrel in something (what?) help prior to scrubbing? Putting a bore brush on a drill sounds like an easy way. Aside from ensuring only the brush contacts the bore, it there anything else I need to be aware of to avoid damage?
Regarding the other barrel, I only fired 10 rounds through it so I can't yet conclude my barrel is the problem. I'll be at the range in a few days and plan to inspect it for a ring in the chamber, see if rounds drop into the chamber, and also fire hundreds of rounds through it. That will provide three new data points.
FTF: light primer strike & failure to fire
Thanks for your questions and explanation. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original problem statement. When the problem occurs, the hammer falls, the primer is typically lightly hit, and the round does not fire. When the problem does not occur, the spent casings show a hard hit. In a couple of failure cases the primer showed what seemed to be a sufficient hit.
The next time at the range, I'll collect some samples and try to take some photos if that would help clarify what's going on.
I've experienced only a couple of failures to feed. I believe I described that above. To clarify, it only has happened with Aguila SV and only with the second round in the magazine. I'm now using only CCI SV with no feed problem. Unless you think the Aguila failure to feed is related to the CCI & Aguila failure to fire problem, I'll defer troubleshooting the Aguila feed problem.
Thanks for your questions and explanation. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original problem statement. When the problem occurs, the hammer falls, the primer is typically lightly hit, and the round does not fire. When the problem does not occur, the spent casings show a hard hit. In a couple of failure cases the primer showed what seemed to be a sufficient hit.
The next time at the range, I'll collect some samples and try to take some photos if that would help clarify what's going on.
I've experienced only a couple of failures to feed. I believe I described that above. To clarify, it only has happened with Aguila SV and only with the second round in the magazine. I'm now using only CCI SV with no feed problem. Unless you think the Aguila failure to feed is related to the CCI & Aguila failure to fire problem, I'll defer troubleshooting the Aguila feed problem.
There have been a number of suggestions; some quite extreme! Don't go right to the complex answer. It's probably something quite simple. (Look up Occam's Razor.) As you reported, it worked when you put it away long ago. You also put it away dirty. What could have happened during the long (dirty) slumber? It's unlikely that you need to do anything except clean it and lube it. Clean it thoroughly. Avoid power tools! Use some elbow grease. Use a T-handle and a 25 cal bore brush. Not a stainless brush, though! Rotate that brush in the chamber area by hand with a good dose of solvent. That old gunk can be a pain to remove. Just go carefully and slowly. Soak and scrub, repeat.
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one eye joe
US Veteran
IF IT WAS MINE, I WOULD HAVE PURCHASED A NEW BARREL FOR IT, AS SOON AS I SAW THAT IT FUNCTIONED FLAWLESSLY WITH THAT BORROWED BARREL......
BY NOW, I WOULD HAVE 3 OR 4 PLEASANT RANGE SESSIONS IN MY LOG BOOK.......
I DO NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO TINKER.....
BY NOW, I WOULD HAVE 3 OR 4 PLEASANT RANGE SESSIONS IN MY LOG BOOK.......
I DO NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO TINKER.....
That's to bad. Half the fun is tinkering with your pistol.
I strongly suspect the ring in the barrel is causing the problem. I do believe scrubbing the Black Ring out of the gun with a stronge solvent and a 25 cal bore brush should do the trick. Just oil the rails and safety switch area after the Black ring is removed, you should be good to go after that. 2 new mags won't hurt your pocket or the gun as well.
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leinster lad
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Light strikes would be indicating that the firing pin could do with removing and cleaning ( inside the breech block as well )
Might be a broken firing pin spring jamming the firing pin from moving freely.
Might be a broken firing pin spring jamming the firing pin from moving freely.
bbqncigars
Member
Field strip it and thoroughly clean it and lube it before doing anything else.
mauiblue
Member
I was having basically the same problems as the OP. I resolved the issue by changing all the major springs in the gun, replaced the extractor, and detail cleaned the gun. No more failure to eject, fire, and feed. BTW I never had light primer strikes. If all fails, S&W repair are the best in getting your gun problems resolved. Good luck and be safe.
Kp321
Member
A friend/customer was having the same problem using Eley/CMP ammo. We replaced the mainspring and firing pin spring and cleaned the firing pin channel. Still had light strikes. Runs 100% with CCI SV. Problem solved.
After reading about the carbon ring issues, I have been cleaning my chamber with a chamber mop soaked with carb cleaner to prevent the problem.
After reading about the carbon ring issues, I have been cleaning my chamber with a chamber mop soaked with carb cleaner to prevent the problem.
update - awake from hibernation
Hello again.
I had put this project on the back burner over the winter. Recently I returned to it with the plan to resolve it this spring.
The problem persisted with a new barrel.
So I stripped the slide, then cleaned the slide and bolt including the firing pin channel. I reassembled the slide with new parts: firing pin, firing pin return spring, extractor, extractor plunger and plunger spring.
Now the light primer strike is virtually a no primer strike and it seems somewhat less frequent that there's a failure.
I thought maybe the mainspring had been damaged by sitting compressed for 30 years and asked S&W customer service about replacing it. They said it would be a good idea.
So, I'm considering doing that but would certainly appreciate any additional advice.
Thanks.
Hello again.
I had put this project on the back burner over the winter. Recently I returned to it with the plan to resolve it this spring.
The problem persisted with a new barrel.
So I stripped the slide, then cleaned the slide and bolt including the firing pin channel. I reassembled the slide with new parts: firing pin, firing pin return spring, extractor, extractor plunger and plunger spring.
Now the light primer strike is virtually a no primer strike and it seems somewhat less frequent that there's a failure.
I thought maybe the mainspring had been damaged by sitting compressed for 30 years and asked S&W customer service about replacing it. They said it would be a good idea.
So, I'm considering doing that but would certainly appreciate any additional advice.
Thanks.
If problem is the same with 2 barrels, the slide is clearly not having enough return power to strip a round, fully chamber it and close the slide.
So many things could cause that, friction in the slide, friction in the hammer reset, installed buffer, recoil spring with closed end to rear, sharp inside end on recoil spring scraping on recoil rod, etc. etc. etc.
Without having pistol in hand, I suggest assembling it without the recoil spring and with azoom caps in the magazine, cycle it slowly and feel for any resistance.
So many things could cause that, friction in the slide, friction in the hammer reset, installed buffer, recoil spring with closed end to rear, sharp inside end on recoil spring scraping on recoil rod, etc. etc. etc.
Without having pistol in hand, I suggest assembling it without the recoil spring and with azoom caps in the magazine, cycle it slowly and feel for any resistance.
I reviewed this thread and see observations and comments about drag beginning at post 9. I just now tried the slide on the frame without the recoil spring, barrel or magazine. There is still drag just prior to the closed position.
There is no buffer installed. What does "recoil spring with closed end to rear" mean? Both ends of the recoil spring are crimped. I insert the domed end of the recoil spring guide into the hole in the frame.
That's easy enough to try. What problem does it solve for you or is it sort of preventive maintenance?
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leinster lad
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Interesting.
A couple of things.....
Unless the slide is damn near fully forward (99%) the trigger bar is disconnected from the sear.
Therefore, unless the slide is damn near fully forward, the hammer will not fall.
If you are getting CONFIRMED light strikes, i.e. there is a firing pin impression on the rim of the case, then we must look for reason of low firing pin energy.
With the barrel and slide OFF the frame, insert a magazine, cock the hammer back with your thumb and pull the trigger.
Does the hammer slam forward quite energetically into the frame ?
If not, investigate.
With the slide "up-side-down" use the back of a pencil or similar and push on the firing pin.
Push it as far into the breech as it will go.
Have a look at the breech face and note how far out the firing pin protrudes
It should come out of the breech about 1/16" ( the thickness of the rim on the case)
If not, investigate
It should move very smoothly in its entire travel in the breech block.
jig it in and out a number of times and make sure it is always smooth.
Firing pin should be basically dry ( just an oily film on it )
If not, investigate
Next time you go to the range and "live fire" take it very slowly and examine the pistol each time it loads ( both manually and after a shot is fired )
Be VERY CAREFULl and pay particular attention to the position of the slide. Is it FULLY CLOSED ?
I am sure that this is a simple fix.
You just need to be patient and methodical and most of all CAREFULL !!!!
A couple of things.....
Unless the slide is damn near fully forward (99%) the trigger bar is disconnected from the sear.
Therefore, unless the slide is damn near fully forward, the hammer will not fall.
If you are getting CONFIRMED light strikes, i.e. there is a firing pin impression on the rim of the case, then we must look for reason of low firing pin energy.
With the barrel and slide OFF the frame, insert a magazine, cock the hammer back with your thumb and pull the trigger.
Does the hammer slam forward quite energetically into the frame ?
If not, investigate.
With the slide "up-side-down" use the back of a pencil or similar and push on the firing pin.
Push it as far into the breech as it will go.
Have a look at the breech face and note how far out the firing pin protrudes
It should come out of the breech about 1/16" ( the thickness of the rim on the case)
If not, investigate
It should move very smoothly in its entire travel in the breech block.
jig it in and out a number of times and make sure it is always smooth.
Firing pin should be basically dry ( just an oily film on it )
If not, investigate
Next time you go to the range and "live fire" take it very slowly and examine the pistol each time it loads ( both manually and after a shot is fired )
Be VERY CAREFULl and pay particular attention to the position of the slide. Is it FULLY CLOSED ?
I am sure that this is a simple fix.
You just need to be patient and methodical and most of all CAREFULL !!!!
The light primer strikes are so light they're almost scuffs ... not like light strikes I've seen before. The pistol did go "click" in these cases.
The hammer pulled back by the thumb does slam forward on trigger pull.
The firing pin pushed forward does protrude from the bolt face (just barely) the thickness of a case rim.
The firing pin is dry (not even an oil film) and travels smoothly in the channel.
The last live fire I did examine the slide prior to each shot. The slide was always closed. Pulling the trigger resulted in a "click" even for the two light/no primer strike failures (~#25 & ~#135) out of 140.
I sure wish it was a simple fix. I'm waiting for a mainspring but in another thread I've been told it's probably not the problem. I can't see how it will hurt to try it, though.
I'm always open to suggestions.
