LEO’s: Do You Think 9 Rounds of .45 ACP is Enough?

[blues7]

As a walking around civilian these days, around home and walking distance I carry a J frame and occasionally a speed strip for a reload.

Once I set foot in a vehicle to go elsewhere I carry a semi-auto with one extra mag. (The extra mag isn't only for a reload, but on hand to address a potential malfunction.)

 

[mrchuck]

I carried a"cocked and locked"45 auto with 2 extra magazines on my Sam Brown for 35 years.
I never felt under gunned. If I felt so,,,,I grabbed my SMITH & WESSON
18"BBL RIOT SHOTGUN and proceeded.

 

[BB57]

Not a police officer ..... but my Dad was. Through the 50-70s he carried a 6 shot .38...... no speedloaders back then so 12 rounds on the belt ( I remember both loops and dump pouches). He shot twice a week or more as a member of the Dept's Pistol team.

The earliest speed loader I can recall reading about was introduced in the 1930s by the Revolver Cartridge Clip Corporation. It used six metal clips in rows of two each to hold the rounds in position to drop into a K-frame .38 revolver. Once they were chambered, you pulled the ring on the side of the unit sideways to pull the case heads out of the clips and leaving the cartridges in the chamber. There's now a modern rubber version of it, although I don't recall it's name.

The Hunt Multi-loader came out in 1959, and was made by both Pachmayr and Safariland.

The Bucheimer / feather touch loader was introduced in 1965 as was the Quick Load.

The Dade Loader came out in 1970.

The modern era probably started in 1973 with HKS loader, about the same time as the Bianchi Speed strip was introduced There have been several others since, but these are still to of the most prolific designs and the oldest still in continuous production.

Bureaucrats being what they are despite being available before then 1970 is about when law enforcement agencies finally started adopting speed loaders, after a shootout in Newhall CA. However it still wasn't anywhere near universal and it took several more years for some departments to adopt them and a few departments never adopted them at all, staying with dump pouches until they adopted semi-auto pistols.

 

[CelticSire]

When I started in law enforcement I carried a Model 10 with an additional 12 rounds in dump pouches. Speed loaders were not allowed. 36 years later, I carry a Sig P220 in .45, plus three additional magazines on my duty belt. My primary responsibility these days as a Deputy Marshal is courtroom security, protection of the Judge, court staff, jurors, and citizens in the courthouse. I don't feel undergunned at all for this environment. If I were still working the street in Patrol, I would do what I used to do, carry 6 additional magazines in my patrol bag. Plus a 12 gauge shotgun, and later, an M-4 in .223. I never felt outgunned, but I also was never in a firefight where I felt I had too much ammunition.

 

[BAM-BAM]

The earliest speed loader I can recall reading about was introduced in the 1930s by the Revolver Cartridge Clip Corporation. It used six metal clips in rows of two each to hold the rounds in position to drop into a K-frame .38 revolver. Once they were chambered, you pulled the ring on the side of the unit sideways to pull the case heads out of the clips and leaving the cartridges in the chamber. There's now a modern rubber version of it, although I don't recall it's name.

The Hunt Multi-loader came out in 1959, and was made by both Pachmayr and Safariland.

The Bucheimer / feather touch loader was introduced in 1965 as was the Quick Load.

The Dade Loader came out in 1970.

The modern era probably started in 1973 with HKS loader, about the same time as the Bianchi Speed strip was introduced There have been several others since, but these are still to of the most prolific designs and the oldest still in continuous production.

Bureaucrats being what they are despite being available before then 1970 is about when law enforcement agencies finally started adopting speed loaders, after a shootout in Newhall CA. However it still wasn't anywhere near universal and it took several more years for some departments to adopt them and a few departments never adopted them at all, staying with dump pouches until they adopted semi-auto pistols.

Great info....... I was a mere lad back then. I know Dad's Dept never carried them..... my introduction was with HKS in 79 or 80 ..... but I prefer the Safariland Comp Is and II's.

 

[JayFramer]

Let’s please keep it on the subject at hand, which is not revolvers nor speedloaders.

 

[keith44spl]

Yes, it is enough for me.

Most times, sometimes I might make an adjustment er two.

The most likely places that I frequent, where I might have to use my sidearm, is in church or the courthouse.

I carry a 1911 or Lwt Commander 8+1 with two extra 8 rd magazines.

.

 

[blues7]

I would say 8 is enough for most any situation. When I carried a Colt Gov't Model (Series '70) for a few years on the job, I generally carried one spare mag (on or off duty) just in case. (More while performing tactical ops or entries on our SRT.)

Reloads are very rare in civilian shootings according to data compiled by Tom Givens over a number of years. Law enforcement work entails more variables, generally speaking, so having extra mags handy is never a bad thing.

 

[fredj338]

Most of the LEO guys I know packing single stack 45acp are carrying 4 spare 8rd mags on their belt, quad mag pouch. Enough, for 75% that never get into a gunfight, sure. Even for those other 25% that have been in a fight, few go more than 10rds.

 

[federali]

Tough Call

I do think that LEOs need high capacity firearms. I can think of any number of shootouts where police died after shooting their revolvers dry. These include the 1970 Newhall Incident, the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, and the slaying of NYPD Officer Edward Byrne, 1988.

This is a tough call. You could be minding your own business and suddenly find yourself in the middle of a mass shooting with or without terrorist motivations. You may be called upon to engage a target at far greater distances than what you perceived. In the more likely one-to-one situation, the range or distance will likely be close and most gunmen will break and run upon meeting an armed response. I'm perfectly comfortable with semi-autos with nine-round capacities.

Carry what you feel is necessary. I for one, will not second-guess you.

 

[153]

Interesting question, but it presumes that you can predict what kind of incident you will become involved in. While "statistics" and supposedly savvy gun writers might maintain a certain number of rounds adequate, it's still a roll of the dice. If by some chance "your number is up" ...

I can say that during my time on the streets, we carried 6 shot S&W revolvers loaded with Remington 125 grain +P ammo. I never felt the need for a bigger gun or more ammo (two HKS Speedloaders in pouches).

By the mid 1980's the Department changed to 9 m/m 226 SIG pistols. There were a couple of incidents where three magazines and more were expended. Was the ammo really needed or was it used up because it was there?

These days the kids being hired have no firearms experience outside the academy. They literally can't hit the broad side of the berm at 10 yards. It's a different generation than in my day. They made need all the rounds they can carry and if they cut loose and you are unfortunate enough to be around ...duck!

While 8 rounds would be enough for nearly all members of this Forum, younger folks might benefit from a Glock 19X with 21 round magazines.

My duty gun ... six for sure!

 

[4506517]

When we carried the 4566 we didn't even have that many. 7 in the mag and 1 in the hole. Carried an additional 2 7 round mags for an additional 14 rounds.

At that point it had to be enough. To be honest, I never really thought about it (I wasn't experienced enough to know any better).

When we changed to the garbage M & P full size 45 we carried 10 in the mag and 1 in the hole with 2 additional 10 round mags. At that point, my greatest concern wasn't ammo, it was if the pistol was going to function. We dumped that and went to the Glock 17.

Now with 17 in the mag and 1 in the hole, plus 2 additional 17 round mags, I feel pretty confident I can stay in the fight.

To directly answer your question: I never really thought about it. At the time all I knew was 7 in the mag and 1 in the hole.

 

[Univibe]

I know a female deputy sheriff who carries six (6) spare 15 round Glock 19 magazines. Her total ammo in gun and on belt is 106 rounds.

 

[federali]

Food For Thought

As a new agent, we sometimes received training from the NYPD range staff. One of their firearms instructors once said: "you can't miss fast enough to win."

 

[Old cop]

This is an excellent article, especially the insert “Expert Analysis.”

Thanks for suggesting.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

This is the article I was talking about in an earlier post.

 

[BAM-BAM]

My duty gun ... six for sure!

Love those modified grips !!!!!!!

 

[BAM-BAM]

As a new agent, we sometimes received training from the NYPD range staff. One of their firearms instructors once said: "you can't miss fast enough to win."

Ya; police work shouldn't involve "suppressive fire"

 

[10ring]

When I was first a cop I carried a revolver and two speedloaders on the belt for a total of 18 rounds. I never felt I lacked ammo. Actually, I never had to use the speedloaders. Later I carried a 3953 and a singe spare mag (not in uniform), for a total of 17 rounds and I never felt inadequately equipped. Only used two spare mags when I doing qualifications. But in fairness, I worked for the D.A. office and mostly went to scenes that were already secured or was with others who would do the heavy lifting if it came to it. My gun very rarely left its holster.

I occupy a strange kind of position now. I spend a fair bit of time dealing with officer-involved-shootings, but do so after-the-fact. Based on what I have seen I am more supportive than I used to be of larger capacity mags on duty in uniform, although that can cause its own set of problems.

Still, I handled one case in which the officer simply would not be alive but for emptying 1.5 of the 17 round mags for his M&P. If I were on the street in uniform in any mid-large urban environment I would likely now carry a higher capacity gun. But would probably not lose sleep over carrying a single stack 9, 40 or 45. I still sometimes carry a j-frame .38 and feel fine doing so.

For a detective or police administrator, unless maybe working fugitive detail, gangs or something similar, and even more so for a CCW holder, a single stack gun and single mag would be plenty and for a CCW holder, a second mag is perhaps optional, if you are confident in the reliability of your gun and magazine. I also teach CCW classes and emphasize that you have a gun to protect yourself, not to be Rambo or Bruce Willis taking out a terrorist cell...

That's my opinion and nothing more. You are welcome to differ and should do what you feel best, if legal.

 

[robertrwalsh]

When the lead starts flying the odds have already gone out the window. I have never talked to someone who had been in an honest-to-god gun fight who said, at the end, "I had too much ammo with me."

 

[armorer951]

Based on statistics, I would be more concerned about situational awareness, gun handling skills and shot placement that I would about round counts and available reloads.

Here's a classic example...... I worked a crime scene (homicide) several years ago in a "near downtown" mostly residential neighborhood. At least two of the four players wore body armor, including the "victim". A total of 48 rounds were fired, including .40S&W, 10mm, and .45acp. Two occupied residences and four parked cars sustained collateral damage. The combatant who was killed was "accidentally" shot in the back of the head by his comrade....who fled the scene on foot. The lesson here for us is that marksmanship and gun handling skills are critical.

The bottom line is practice. Practice a lot. Practice instinctive shooting techniques as much as possible with your carry gun and holster, and include some of your carry ammunition if you can afford to. Carry a flashlight.