LEO’s: Do You Think 9 Rounds of .45 ACP is Enough?

The Kiwi Cop Has It!

My personal feeling is that any LEO who carries a 1911 .45 will be proficient enough not to feel inadequately armed due to the guns magazine limitations. He will be an experienced hand gunner and confident in his shooting ability.

But.... he will not limit him or herself to just the 8+1 capacity of one magazine. Any serious Leo would have at least one, and probably two spare magazines about his person.

The problem lies in police departments which, for various reasons usually pertaining to liability and PR, will stipulate a 9mm (or possibly still at .40 caliber firearm. In which case the 1911 carrier will have a 9 +1, or probably even a 10 + 1, magazine capacity.

And one of this big issues will be that many LEO's, especially in large departments, will simply not be a "handgun" person. They will show up to qualify, pass what is a relatively easy course of fire, and seldom fire another shot until the next qualification.
One cop to another, you're right. I started out with the mandatory
"cowboy" gun. (revolver) but even back then when I went into investigation services I CHEATED. I bought me (then new on the market) A S&W Model 39! There were no 15 (or more) magazines or___I'd have had one of today's service semi-autos.
And I and two others did practice a lot, two to three days a week
on our range. (The range master was the father of one of us) Sadly, most of the time it was only we three.
Most of today's cops are armed with one of these pistols with 15 or more rounds. ( I would have loved it) At least two extra mags
for most. That's close to 50 rounds. Now if they have practiced beyond just qualifying once a year then that should be fine.
If they aren't proficient___there's other lines of work they should consider.
Again, Kiwi Cop___great post.
Stay safe (Your choice of pistol and caliber is yours... I used to use 105mm in the marines. Liked it)

Poli Viejo
 
I carried a 1911 with 2 extra mags on my belt and 10 mags in my war bag. I always carried state of the art defensive ammo and never felt I lacked the fire power I needed. Also, I practiced often which helps with confidence and accuracy.
 
This is an excellent article, especially the insert “Expert Analysis.”

Thanks for suggesting.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

The problem is his reaction is stemming from his overreaction to the event, not his well thought out thoughts on the situation that nearly killed him. He DIDN'T run out of ammunition and didn't even use his backup pistol. If he won the fight before running out of ammunition the first time, packing a lot more isn't going to help the second.

Which brings up the other part of the argument, even if we can objectively say high capacity is good and plenty of ammunition is good, at some point it isn't an "automatic best choice" or "choice of gun/caliber is based on capacity first and only". Sure, you might want to carry a high capacity pistol magazine, it sure could help you win a fight, but then again it sure might not. Most of all at some point you can run into redundancy, and the greater question of "when is it enough?" 12? 15? 20? Is your loadout going to be 50 rounds, 120? Carry enough and you will be sure to not use it, or just ensure you will spray so many rounds you really will be a threat to the public in some shootouts. Yes, its better to be over prepared, but yes, at some point you are walking into theoretical advantage over real advantage.

The biggest thing with large capacity, especially in handguns, is the fact many shooters shoot "strings" in real life combat. Fact is, many folks will shoot the string till their gun runs out, wither it be a 5 shot j-frame or a 16 shot Glockenspiel. In those cases there is a high probability that either shooter might have to reload after failing to stop the attack, the end of the string being the least accurate and least likely to hit and do something of value, high capacity might not help a lot of people in a real gun fight the way they shoot. Johnny Stringer will get the same amount of hits and/or misses with a 9 round magazine, a 12 round magazine, and a 15 round magazine, he'll be back to reloading so he won't be overrun with an empty gun with no advantage to his higher capacity. This doesn't apply to people who hold their shots and maybe string 5-8 rounds and stop so they don't run to cover on an empty gun, but you get the point. In some cases giving a guy a 20 round magazine might just mean more collateral damage potential and little to no combat advantage. Isn't it modern practice to change magazines wither you emptied it or fired a few rounds once you get to cover anyways?

Miami shootout was mentioned about FBI needing auto loaders, yet that assumes the FBI wasn't already doing it, and magically forgets that the FBI agents with auto loaders were just as out of ammunition as the revolver guys because of said shooting style. In a vicious, quick paced shootout with fast magazine changes, the auto loader guy with 2 reloads might find himself out of ammunition just as quick as the revolver guy with 2 reloads, much less an auto loader with a smaller capacity. If you hammer quick enough, that magic super dooper world conquering high capacity can run out faster than you can anticipate. Thus reloads might be more important than initial capacity in some situations with some shooters.

Is capacity better? Yes. Is capacity especially good with disciplined shooters who use their ammunition carefully under fire? You betcha. Is it the end all and be all of handgun considerations? Not by a longshot.
 
Everyone has their own feeling and or opinion on this touchy subject,..... my agency mandated minimum two reloads on the duty belt, no matter the caliber. Plain cloths men were permitted one reload regardless of caliber.
A neighboring agency issued the Sig 220 and mandated FOUR magazines on the duty belt which they supplied. I have personal knowledge of four issues of unpleasantly where issues of spare magazines and ammunition became an issue. No,.. poor Marksmanship wasn't the problem but prolonged exchanges of gunfire between good and bad guy or guy's with cover ranging from MV's to walls of buildings. Calibers involved in these incidents were either 9mm, .38 or .45 or combinations thereof.
Many times when in an unpleasant situation fire discipline may be compromised somewhat as one is in need of returning the favor, seeking cover or trying to remove innocents from hostilities or all of the aforementioned at the same moment.
We must endeavor to practice with the weapon we carry and please, try and avoid confrontations whenever possible if possible as far as being a civilian. Policemen have no choice on engagement when a crime is in progress or lives are at risk.
I practice the above but do carry spares as well as a NY reload in private life and stick the same weapons system I am comfortable and familiar with. No,.. " in my rotation ", nonsense unless I am superbly skilled in their use and I am of a simple mind and stay with what I know.
 
You guys are really overthinking this. You don't have to be a LEO to figure this out... There are countless surveillance videos on YouTube showing civilian self defense shootings and if 8 rounds isn't enough to solve the problem then I'd say that there is a serious lack of training on your part.
 
I carried a 4506-1, then a 4566. Both 8+1 single stacks. Later, in plainclothes Investigations I carried 4516s and 4513s. 7+1 pistols. I also always carried at least one spare mag and a BUG. I never felt that 8+1 was "not enough".

Having worked Robbery/Homicide for 19 years and being involved in over 200 GSW homicides, I have come to the conclusion that you will be out of time long before you are out of ammunition. No matter what you are carrying. Regards 18DAI
 
Over 25 years in law enforcement. Started out as a sheriff's deputy with a 1911a1 and am now a fed carrying a 229R. Have shot the SIG, Glock 19 and M9 more than any other handguns in my life but will still pick up a 1911, Browning Hi Power, CZ or a good revolver and still hit faster and with more ease than those "wonder" pistols foisted on me by my agency...
 
I'd feel pretty good with a 1911 with two reloads. I did carry that arrangement for 2 or 3 years, a Kimber 1911 with 2 spares for 22 rounds total,....plus a back up 669 either on me or in my door pocket,....plus a 12g riot in a rack,....plus a mini-14 in the trunk,....plus an ammo can in the trunk with with more for everything. I felt adequately provisioned. If I'd had a quadruple mag pouch I would have filled it. I did carry a 629 for many years with a quadruple speedloader pouch for a total of 30 rounds. Also, for a number of years I carried a wheel gun with a total of 18 rounds and felt OK but would have liked a few more. But then I also always had a back up even if it was just a lowly AMT 380 with a spare mag in my pocket.

So, I guess my answer is: Yes, 8+1 and two reloads is enough (or in my case 6 + 2 reloads or 7+1 and 2 reloads) but more is better.
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As being retired and now a civilian I generally carry a shield 9 with 7+1 and two 8 round reloads with the grip extensions removed. But sometimes I carry a 1911 Officers Model 45ACP with two reloads. And to really confuse things I'll sometimes carry my S&W 69 with two speed strips.
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For Sundays I carry more gun as I have some security responsibilities with the main concern being active shooter defense. Yeah, an active shooter is a remote possibility but that possibility is the responsibility. For that I'll carry a G19 MOS with red dot or a G40 MOS with red dot. I'll carry two reloads which at 46 rounds seems like enough ammo to me.
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I'll confess that sometimes now days I wuss out and just have a P3AT with one reload. Everyone gets lazy sometimes.
 
I am in my 25th year as a deputy sheriff and I have carried a Government model for the entirety. I currently switch between my 45acp and my 38 super depending on the weather. On duty I carry 3 spare mags on the duty belt and would carry 4 if I could find a quad pouch that I actually like. I have never felt outgunned because of the 1911s magazine capacity however when working I certain areas of the county I have been known to drop a few extra mags in my shirt pocket.
 
The 1911-A1 .45 ACP stands alone at the pinnacle of defensive handguns. If was designed as an offensive battle handgun, and it that capacity, it had no rival. GIs in the Pacific relied upon it to stop nighttime suicide Bonsai charges. Vietnam tunnel rats found it formidable.

Were I back to driving a black & white, I'd want a Springfield Armory Professional Model (FBI gun) or SA TRP, either in .45 ACP.
 
This article was published in 1990 by Ayoob. I think the concept holds true today.


"Combat Handguns" Magazine | October 1990 | Massad Ayoob
Posted on 11/20/2001, 10:31:41 AM by 2nd_Ammendment_Defender

[This is an old article published in 1990, but it offers some good information]

Fans of 9 millimeter high capacity autos triumphantly cry "Firepower!" Old-line police chiefs who still cleave to revolvers make the sign of the cross when confronted with such service pistols and hiss, "Firepower!" There's only a slight difference in the inflection.

"If you can't do it with six, you can't do it at all" is an old canard that has been heard less and less as the cocaine cowboys have upped the firepower stakes in the war on crime. As police nationwide rush to trade the traditional "police special" revolver for the semiautomatic service pistol, their overwhelming choice is the 9 millimeter Parabellum with a capacity of 12 to 18 rounds.

The single most popular model is the Glock 17 which carries 18 rounds in out-of-the box configuration and, with the addition of the Plus-2 magazine floorplate, put 20 rounds without a reload at the lawman's fingertips the instant he clears leather.

Diehard sixgunners are not the only ones who put a garland of wolfsbane around their necks and nail garlic cloves over the door when high capacity pistols are mentioned. There are the Senator Metzenbaums of the world, who fear that their constituents will turn them out of office if they embrace the necessarily expensive measures that would be meaningful for crime control, and so instead seize on issues like ownership of semiautomatic firearms with box magazines to create the illusion that they are doing something about the crime rate that is the American voters biggest single concern.

And finally, there is plaintiff's counsel. This is the lawyer who specializes in suing over personal injuries, and doesn't make money unless somebody is being sued, and occasionally has to manufacture a case to pay the office overhead. This is the sort of attorney who will imply that anyone who carried a pistol with 18 shots obviously had a Rambo complex and was looking for a schoolyard to shoot up when he stumbled across Counsel's client who just happened to have a knife in his hand. If the defense is that you carried that gun because it was issued to you, all the better; more ammo for proving "a continuing pattern of police brutality" by the department that furnished you with the weapon.

The fact is, there are arguments that can be made for firepower. Firepower is the ability to deliver a large number of shots at a high rate of speed. As crime grows worse in America, firepower is more relevant to the good guys than ever.

I'm writing this at the beginning of March, 1990. In just the past couple of months, the need for firepower has been reinforced for me about three times over.

ITEM: In Stockton, California--a city made infamous by madman Patrick Purdy and the semiautomatic AK-47 he brought to a schoolyard--a couple of patrolmen had to shoot it out with a gunman armed with a .45 automatic. The bad guy's first shot put officer# 1 down for the count, though he was in stable condition at last report. This left officer# 2 alone to continue the running gunfight.

The suspect went through a couple of magazines without hitting the lawman, and was reloading once more when the cop finally got a good sight picture and finished the action with four killing hits. The newspapers reported that the lone officer had fired 27 shots before the encounter was terminated.

Item: In Kansas, a lone officer pulled over a suspect who had shortly before robbed a bank using heavy Rambo gear including smoke bombs and concussion grenades. The felon came out of the car shooting, and caught the patrolman off guard.

The cop was a southpaw, and the first bullet smashed into his gun hand. As he clawed for his 9 millimeter Smith & Wesson third generation service automatic, the would-be cop killer hammered four .44 Special bullets into the cops chest.

Horribly wounded but determined to live and fulfill his duty, the officer retreated for cover, firing as he went. Fired weak hand only, most of his fusillade went wide, doing no more than causing peripheral wounds on the gunman but at least keeping the latter from reloading his revolver.

The cop took cover behind a car. He stabilized his hand on the vehicle and fired one more shot.

Witnesses saw a hole appear in the center of the felon's chest, and saw him shudder. He turned, stumbled a distance to his car, got in, and put it in gear. The walk to the car had been perhaps fifty feet according to reliable reports; the car went another fifty feet before it crashed with the attempted murderer dead at the wheel. The officer's 147-grain subsonic hollowpoint had destroyed his heart. The officer remains in intensive care. It had been his fourteenth shot that stopped the fight.

ITEM; At the International conference of ASLET, the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, in 1990, in San Diego, Los Angeles Police Department's resident officer-survival expert Lt. Rich Wemmer mentioned that a growing trend among police in the region was to carry FOUR spare magazines on the uniform belt instead of the usual two.

The reason, said Lt. Wemmer, was that there had been no fewer than THREE fairly recent incidents in which California lawmen involved in firefights had emptied their service automatics, reloaded not once but twice, and used up all three magazines and still found themselves facing active, armed, violent felons. The weapons involved had ranged from the Beretta 92F (14 shot magazine, 9mm) to the Sig-Sauer P220 (7 shot magazine, .45 ACP). This trend is not recent, a few years ago, I debriefed Officer Jim Martin. Working a small town in Arkansas, Jim had a routine drunk driving stop turn into a nightmare.

The subject was a grossly obese man with a death wish and a .357 magnum, who opened fire on the officer. In the moments that followed, Martin went through two magazines with his department issue Smith & Wesson model 59 service pistol, firing 29 shots and striking the subject 15 times in the torso and twice in the head. It was the last bullet to the head that put the gunman down as Martin's slide locked back for the second time. He reloaded his final magazine and cautiously approached to find the gunman dead.

Martin had been shot twice, once in the chest and once in the back. Both bullets had been stopped by his Second Chance vest. Unable to reload his sixgun, the man who had tried to murder him was trying to pull a Commando Mark III .45 carbine from the toolbox in the back of the pickup when Officer Martin's final bullet destroyed his spaced-out brain.

CARTRIDGE CAPACITY VERSUS DISCIPLINED ACCURACY

We can all sit comfortably in our armchairs, raise an eyebrow and curl our lips in a sneer, and say, "These men didn't know what they were doing! Why, my instructor or I would have killed all those goblins with a single well-placed .45 slug and would have blown them out of their socks!"

This theory works fine in the armchair. It sounds great when delivered in stentorian tones by the lawyer addressing the jury from the plaintiff's podium. It does not, however, always fly on the street.

Anyone who accuses the Kansas cop of not being cool and disciplined is unlikely to volunteer to get shot four times in the chest and once in the gunhand with a .44 caliber revolver BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN DRAW. The hail of "covering fire" put out by this officer with his 9mm undoubtedly kept his homicidal opponent from killing him UNTIL the officer could get to cover, collect himself, brace the only hand he had left, and centerpunch the [expletive].

Are you unhappy with the performance of the 9mm subsonic 147- grain hollowpoint that pierced the gunman's heart, yet allowed him to walk fifty feet and drive fifty more? So am I. So, no doubt, was the officer. But before you offer a largebore bullet as the cure for that problem, remember that the man who killed that bad guy HAD BEEN SHOT FOUR TIMES THROUGH THE CHEST WITH A .44 SPECIAL BEFORE HE SLEW HIS WOULD-BE MURDERER.

Go ahead, look at the marksmanship trophies on your wall and make fun of the Stockton officer who had to fire twenty-seven shots to hit the man who had shot down his partner with four of his bullets. But ask yourself if you have ever seen someone like a police partner--for that read BROTHER--shot down and left for dead before your very eyes. Ask yourself if anyone ever emptied a couple of .45 auto magazines at YOU while you were exercising your cool discipline and watching your front sight as you shot your way to those trophies you cherish.

And what about those California situations where three different cops ran out of ammunition and still didn't neutralize the gunman? In at least one of those gunfights, the gunman was elusive and cunning, took advantage of cover and light and shadow, and had the initial edge of starting the encounter. The officers survived, and no innocents were killed; that sounds like a victory to me.

And what of Jim Martin, he who emptied his high-capacity Smith & Wesson not once but twice at the man who had already shot him in the chest and back with a .357 Magnum Taurus revolver? Rich Davis, manufacturer of the Second Chance vest that saved Martin's life twice over, puts the issue in perspective.

"The .45 fans will use Jim Martin's shooting to argue that the 9mm is an ineffective manstopper. The high capacity nine millimeter fans will use it as proof that you need lots of bullets, since no one can PROVE that Martin's antagonist would have fallen down any faster if he'd been hit with .45 slugs instead of 9mm bullets," notes Davis, who has been around the Stopping Power Argument block a few times.

The officers in Stockton and Arkansas are not the only ones to have to fire 27 times to stop a fight, and not all the lawmen have come out on top like they have.

On April 11, 1986, a gun battle took place between FBI agents and a pair of hardened armed robbers and murderers in Miami, Florida. It would be as highly publicized as the gunfight at the OK Corral more than a century before, and it would take more lives.

In the course of that shootout, a perpetrator emptied and reloaded a Ruger Mini-14, using up at least one Federal Ordnance 40-round magazine along the way, according to reports. Of the eight involved agents, one was unable to return fire but seven more did. Here is how they fared.

--One agent emptied his .357 Magnum revolver and wounded one of the killers. Shot in the gun hand, he was unable to reload before he was shot in the neck and permanently injured by the perpetrator with the Mini-14.

--One agent lost his service revolver and continued the fight with his 5-shot Chief Special .38 backup revolver. He fired all five shots without being able to neutralize the opponents. He was shot and gravely wounded while attempting to reload with loose cartridges.

--One agent fired all six shots from his service revolver and had to reload with loose cartridges, despite having been wounded. He did not, apparently, hit either of the killers.

--One agent fired a few shots with his S & W M459 9 millimeter pistol, but had lost his glasses in the ramming of the suspects' vehicle that had preceded the shootout and was apparently unable to identify his targets. He was shot down by the killer with the .223 rifle before he could utilize his extensive training to effectively engage his adversaries.

--One agent emptied his 15-shot Model 459, reloaded, and emptied a second magazine. One of his 9mm Silvertips tore through the primary antagonist's right arm and into his chest, severing the plural artery and causing a mortal wound that did not take immediate effect. It was after this bullet hit him that the killer shot down five of the seven wounded agents, two of whom died. When he shot THIS agent, the latter's pistol was empty, it's slide locked back on it's second and last magazine.

--One agent emptied his Model 459, wounding the primary gunman once and possibly rendering him incapable of shooting any longer with that hand; he was subsequently observed to fire weak hand only. This agent's slide locked back after 15 rounds and he drew his Smith & Wesson Model 60 Chief's Special from his ankle holster and fired one .38 Special round at the suspects before reloading his 9mm auto. This agent who took effective cover and a controlling posture, would be the only involved FBI man to survive the firefight unscathed.

--One agent, severely wounded in the left arm by .223 fire early in the firefight, emptied his Remington 870 pump shotgun one-handed, wounding both perpetrators but not neutralizing either. This heroic lawman ended the fight by staggering up to the getaway car and shooting the gunmen three times each with lead hollowpoint 158-grain .38 Special bullets from his service revolver, killing both instantly. As he collapsed near their corpses, the sixgun in his hand had been emptied.

The gunbattle had been a lasting lesson in the importance of firepower. FBI subsequently authorized field agents to carry high capacity 9mm autos or 8-to 9-shot .45 autos for the first time in the Bureau's history. The agents using 9mm pistols in the Miami fight were specially authorized to do so because they were SWAT members. In addition, agents were issued the HK MP5SF, a compact 9mm semiautomatic carbine with a 32-round magazine.

SPRAY AND PRAY FACTOR

Of particular concern to those who will have to take responsibility for stray shots is the tendency for some people under stress to "hose the foes," a habit known in combat shooting circles as "spray and pray."

This is typically seen in people who acquired the high capacity pistol with the feeling that it's large magazine was the guns RAISON D'ETRE. They feel consciously or subconsciously that if they can just get fifteen pieces of brass over their heads and fifteen pieces of lead heading downrange, whatever is giving them a problem is likely to be taken out of the fight and they will be safe.

History shows us that this is wrong. Undirected full-auto M-16 fire in Vietnam proved it. From South Africa to Britain's SAS, battle-hardened troops made it policy to fire semiautomatic only to force the combatant to be cool enough to aim and make each shot count. The motto of the U.S. Army's Advanced Marksmanship Unit, headquartered at Fort Benning, starkly underscores this philosophy: "one shot, one kill."

Alas, not every combatant can live up to that philosophy in the real world of lethal violence. This is why U.S. troops still have M-16s, albeit with three-shot burst controls, instead of having reverted to bolt action Springfield rifles. This is why police are turning away from six-shooters to magazine-fed semi- automatics, and not toward two-shot derringers.

TIMES CHANGE, TRENDS CHANGE

Today's criminals are more likely to be wearing "bulletproof vests" than at any time in history. Some of the defenders' ammo is likely to be wasted on the armor until they realize it's time to go to another point of aim.

Today's criminals are more likely than ever to be operating in teams. Jerry and Cathy Lane, top-rated firearms instructors who do contract training for Glock, note that some 42% of police shootouts now involve more than one armed criminal.

Today's criminals are more likely than ever to be jacked up on some form of cocaine, including the epidemic crack, at the time of the encounter. Any form of cocaine causes a massive adrenaline rush, and with it superhuman strength and imperviousness to pain and shock.

Today's criminal is prison-trained and/or gang-trained to use urban combat tactics in armed encounters. They take better use of cover, concealment and evasive movements than ever before.

All four of these factors make it likely that more of the Good Guy's bullets will be expended before the Bad Guys are neutralized. All of these factors, therefore, militate for a higher capacity handgun in the hands of the lawful defenders.

MIDDLE GROUND

Somewhere between the assets of firepower and the liability of the spray and pray syndrome we find the eight- to ten-shot pistol chambered for the 9 millimeter, .45 ACP, or 10 millimeter cartridge. Though from New York to Los Angeles to Florida we can find cops who lost the fight when their sixguns ran dry, there is no case this author has been able to find where a cop died because his .45 automatic was empty, and the other guy's wasn't.

Though lots of bad guys have taken a full "magazine" from a .45, this tends to mostly reflect situations where the good guy fired the gun so fast that it was empty in about a second and a half, or before the criminal's corpse could fall. Try as I might, and I HAVE tried, I can find no cases of bad guys taking 13 or 15 .45 hits and staying active in the fight.

While "spray and pray syndrome" can take place with any weapons system, it rarely seems to do so with the eight and nine- shot autoloaders. The users seem to draw confidence from the fact that they have a 33% to 50% in-gun firepower advantage over revolvers, and much faster reloads, thanks to magazine feed. At the same time they aren't fooled into thinking they have more ammo than Fort Benning, and throwing their shots away.

DEFENDING FIREPOWER

The likelihood of multiple opponents who move fast, often wear body armor, know how to take cover, and tend to ingest chemicals that make them resistant to pain and shock, are all good reasons for carrying guns that throw a whole lot more bullets than six-shooters do.

Do not lose this issue of this magazine. The fact that you have read these things beforehand creates a pre-existing knowledge of dynamics of violent encounters. This knowledge can, and should be, discoverable evidence if a shyster who can't make a living with honest cases, sues you for shooting in self-defense a criminal predator, and doing so with a gun that fires more than five or six shots without a reload.

All the above instances are true. If you need more proof, consider the classic police training manual "Street Survival" by Calibre Press. It contains a famous photograph of a Cook County, Illinois junkie who was shot 33 times with 9mm pistol bullets and stayed up and running and trying to shoot.
 
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Keep in mind no equipment will turn the mortal into immortal. If you get hit it does not matter how many rounds, or what you carry.

Most of us avoid environments where shootings might occur so for those like me statistically it would be in the sub percentages. IOW if you are not a LEO, or a soldier your odds of needing any ammo, let alone more than eight are slim to none.
 
Even a civilian should have at least one reload because if you have to use the gun, it needs to be re-loaded immediately after to be ready to use again if needed. As to military and police, that's the reason everyone in a rifle platoon carries ammo for the machinegun!

Except the enemy is concentrating fire on the machine gunner.
 
Yes, it is enough for me.

The most likely places that I frequent, where I might have to use my sidearm, is in church or the courthouse.

I carry a 1911 or Lwt Commander 8+1 with two extra 8 rd magazines.

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So many great comments. Nicely done y'all!

With so many courthouses using metal detectors these days I think a courthouse gunfight has been quite a bit minimized nationally but in houses of worship I agree totally - in light of recent events many houses of worship are adding armed guards (we have had them for years!), wanding, and sometimes metal detectors. Still, not every house of worship does this and they are soft targets packed with targets of opportunity. My revolvers, as a rule, stay home, and my compact 9mm accompanies me for prayer. A few extra rounds could matter.

I also teach CCW classes and emphasize that you have a gun to protect yourself, not to be Rambo or Bruce Willis taking out a terrorist cell...

As a concealed carry instructor (now retired) I agree totally with this, too. Too many people think their permit will allow them to take on the entire criminal world. It's just ain't so. Situational awareness and the ability to NOT get into a gunfight are of paramount importance.
 
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