LEO’s: Do You Think 9 Rounds of .45 ACP is Enough?

[Dvan34]

Retired, now carry 1 extra mag of 7 rds, .40 SW Golden Saber. I have a knife holster that fits it perfectly. Not any extra weight at all. Probably never need it - but just in case. Weighs less than my cell phone. I also have a spare tire in my car's trunk. Just in case.

 

[jim lock]

I can fully understand why a LEO retired or not would consider extra ammunition just because of the job related situations you are or would have been placed in. A non-LEO maybe not so much.

 

[snowman.45]

From 6 round wheel guns to 7, 8 and 9 round 1911's and S&W 645's, to Glock 21's, to Sig P226s to Glock 17/19/26s, I've been issued or carried all for duty over my 37 years as an LEO. While street armament has changed, I never felt under-gunned with any of them, so long as I had sufficient reloads as was confident in my skills and training.

 

[URIT]

Guys this is directed more towards the LEO’s out there, and concerns the duty usage of .45 ACP handguns holding 8 rounds of ammunition in the magazine, namely the 1911 and SIG P220 as well as others.

For a main service weapon, do you think 8+1 of .45 ACP is enough in the gun, with 2 or more magazines in reserve for reloads? Interested in what our brave law enforcers on this board, both past and present, have to say on this subject. Thanks in advance!

-Jay

I would feel comfortable with 8+1 of .45 ACP and 2 or more mags for reloads.

I carried a revolver for over 33 years with 2 speed loaders on my duty belt and a Colt DS off-duty with no additional ammo. So, I'd feel fine carrying 25 rounds on duty.

Today, I carry a S&W 3953 or 4053 (usually without additional mags).

 

[keith44spl]

When I was working.......

Once upon a time we were have this trial...
The two defendants were charged with the capital murder of two individuals.

First day of trial, we received a bomb threat, caller declared he and the two defendants
were members of the Cornbread Mafia (Johnny Boone's outfit) and
they would liberate their confederates by any means.

I didn't have an MP-5 or anything short enough to conceal well under a suit coat.

So, I just carried two Colts and a couple extra mags. I was good with that.

I guess, one just has to read the lay of the land that they expect to travel, as what their armament should be.

.

 

[6518John]

Dave if it hit the fan, were you going to blaze away with both, or just one at a time!!?? Or just go with how the spirit moved you? The spirit would have moved me to hide under counsel’s table.

 

[crazyphil]

Sgt. Alvin York proved that a 1911 with one magazine loaded is plenty
if you know how to use it. A German officer and 5 soldiers charged him
with fixed bayonets. He picked them off, starting with the fartherest
away, one by one.

 

[flagman1776]

When I started, revolvers were required. No one carried speed loaders. I did... carried 2 Comp2 on my belt. I was given a hard time until I qualified with them. Soon others started carrying them. I kept quiet about the 2 HKS loaders in my patrol jacket. I had more ammo in speed strips in my briefcase.
The Armorer got his class gun from S&W school approved... a 645... I bought it from him. It was already authorized.

 

[keith44spl]

Dave if it hit the fan, were you going to blaze away with both, or just one at a time!!??
Or just go with how the spirit moved you? The spirit would have moved me to hide under counsel’s table.

I's never been much of a blazer......I really like to make em all count.

Although, I can shoot with either hand, point shooting and or aimed fire.

It's good to know one's limitations....It'd probably be easier to shoot my
way out of the courthouse than fightin my way under the prosecutor's bench.


.

 

[Old TexMex]

I's never been much of a blazer......I really like to make em all count.

Although, I can shoot with either hand, point shooting and or aimed fire.

It's good to know one's limitations....It'd probably be easier to shoot my
way out of the courthouse than fightin my way under the prosecutor's bench.


.

Yessir, that would’ve probably been the long line.

 

[WR Moore]

I haven't seen this one mentioned, but if you visit the Police One website, look for the article on the guy who now carries 146 rounds of 9 mm. There's a different article/author on the same incident in American Handgunner sometime back.

Sargent Gramins (sp) engaged a felon with his .45 with Golt Dots. Hit ratio was about 50% (17) with hits in both lungs, the heart, one kidney and 2 in the head (IIRC) before a 3 rd head shot resolved his problem. Felon had a clean tox screen.

Quantity does have a quality all it's own.

 

[Fastbolt]

I haven't seen this one mentioned, but if you visit the Police One website, look for the article on the guy who now carries 146 rounds of 9 mm. There's a different article/author on the same incident in American Handgunner sometime back.

Sargent Gramins (sp) engaged a felon with his .45 with Golt Dots. Hit ratio was about 50% (17) with hits in both lungs, the heart, one kidney and 2 in the head (IIRC) before a 3 rd head shot resolved his problem. Felon had a clean tox screen.

Quantity does have a quality all it's own.

Yep, sometimes you can have the "right/caliber/ammo amount" and still have things go pear-shaped.

I remember learning of a OIS many years ago where the cop hit a suspect something like 25-26 times with his .45 ACP duty weapon before he surrendered. As I recall, at least some of the rounds had to perforate a back window and a single veh seat (back) before striking the suspect.

I saw a morgue x-ray of a suspect who absorbed a full magazine load of 9mm JHP's from a MP5 (swat), with the hits scattered throughout the shooter's torso, before a 12GA shotgun slug to the spine stopped his "continued volitional actions" (for good, hence the morgue x-ray).

I knew another cop who found himself in a situation where he'd been forced to empty his Sig P220 into the driver's door of a pickup truck. He was using one of the older versions of the soft aluminum jacketed 185gr W-W STHP.

He told me that when they finally caught the truck and driver, that none of his rounds had completely penetrated the door and made it into the cab. If I remember right, the window had also been rolled down (which at the time made me wonder why he'd not tried to fire through the open window, but things can get fuzzy when the frenetic threshold is breached).

Learning of these sort of incidents never made me lose sleep worrying about if they'd happen to me, though. You can only diligently train and practice to be able to do what you can do, to the best of your ability, regardless of the gear-of-the-moment.

 

[snowman.45]

Well, I've often heard it said that no one has ever complained about having too many rounds. However.
I'm of a mind that each one should be treated like it's a precious commodity, and only be expended when the previously fired rounds have missed their mark or been less than effective at ending the violence.

 

[oink]

Well, I've often heard it said that no one has ever complained about having too many rounds. However.
I'm of a mind that each one should be treated like it's a precious commodity, and only be expended when the previously fired rounds have missed their mark or been less than effective at ending the violence.

Well, sorta. Personally, I think in most cases a double tap is a good way to start things out.

 

[dandyrandy]

9 rounds of anything is really good enough.. But depends on what your mission is LOL

 

[biku324]

There are no absolute answers. NMSP Officer LaDon Moten fired his S&W 5906 15 times with JHP at an armed, firing suspect; an AZ DPS trooper was also engaged and struck the suspect twice in the chest with 45 ACP 230 grain JHP from his SIG P220 The suspect, hit many times, stopped reloading and firing his 38 revolver when he collapsed from blood loss due to a femoral artery hit by a 9mm round.

You can't know in advance what will be enough. I happily (separately) carried 357 revolvers, a 45 ACP, then a 40 S&W all with two complete reloads for more than 21 years. If I was reasonably sure I was headed into trouble, I carried a rifle or issue shotgun.

 

[crazyphil]

I read about Chicago Police Sergeant Bob Stasch, a veteran of 14
gunfights. Said he had only experienced 1 one-shot-stop.
In one incident he and his partner were attacked by a perp with a
butcher knife. They pumped six .45 Colt rounds into him, but he
didn't go down. Five more hits with a .38 Sp. lead hollow points,
but he was still attacking. Four more shots with .44 magnum
Winchester Silver Tips. The 4th .44 magnum shot finally put the
perp down.

Jim Cirillo was involved in 19 gunfights that ended with dead perps.
He only saw 2 one-shot-stops. Both shots were to the brain. He said
even accurate shots to the heart were not instant stoppers.

There is no way to know how much will be enough. Old school advice
from Elmer Keith: "Carry the biggest damned gun you are capable of
using." Not sure I have his quote right, but I know what he meant.

 

[WR Moore]

OK, the quote function is fluky again.

The issue with Elmer's comment is that a great many people have an inflated opinion of their abilities. Add in a poor to non-existent grasp of reality and you can have massive issues. In the real world, when struck by a bullet, people do not do a double back flip; kick twice and then pass on to the next plane of existence.

Once upon a time S&W did a test series on a random selection of folks abilities to accurately and rapidly engage targets. Once things went past .38 Spl/9 mm the abilities went downhill fast. 37 years experience as an instructor causes me to believe they have a point.

 

[vegasgunhand]

I've been a LEO firearms instructor since 1980. I have been in the unenviable position of being in two armed encounters with suspects. I survived both by the grace of God, Kevlar, and good training.

We carry a handgun because they are easier to conceal than a rifle. If we had the advantage to know exactly when a "routine" situation would turn into an armed encounter, we would carry a rifle. Since we don't have that luxury, we carry a handgun.

With any handgun, regardless of the caliber, it comes down to bullet placement. You can not make up for poor marksmanship with a larger caliber. If have told my students for decades to carry the handgun that they are comfortable with, and can shoot the most accurately. In law enforcement, that choice is sometimes made for us by agency firearms policy. In those cases you have to make the best of the situation. Train hard with what you carry. Make the time to go to the range, and also conduct dry practice, this is how you become proficient with your firearm. Just going to the mandatory qualifications every quarter, and not training between those qualifications, will not keep you at a level you really need to be at to defend your life in a gunfight. You will in fact only be keeping up with the training minimums your agency has set to hopefully keep the agency clear of a potential lawsuit.

As far as is 9 rounds enough? Well that depends on what you are comfortable with. I have carried many different types of revolvers and semi-auto pistols during my career. I have done patrol, K-9, investigations, and spent 11 years on our agencies Special Response team. Each of those assignments required a different type of handgun. They are tools, and like a mechanic, one tool does not work for everything you do.

When I carried a revolver as my primary weapon, it was always a six shot, and I carried at least two reloads for it. It may have been a 4 inch .357 Magnum, or a 2 inch Detective Special or Diamondback, Model 10 or 15, or Ruger Speed Six. I never felt I was under gunned.

With semi-autos, it pretty much the same, two reloads most of the time. During my time or SRT, I did carry three pistol magazines, because our issued thigh rig holster had a pouch on the front of the holster, so I carried and extra magazine.

At the end the day, carry what the situation dictates to you, and ultimately what makes you comfortable, none, one or twenty reloads, that's is your choice. Get good training, and remember you should never stop training.

 

[Fastbolt]

... Each of those assignments required a different type of handgun. They are tools, and like a mechanic, one tool does not work for everything you do.

When I carried a revolver as my primary weapon, it was always a six shot, and I carried at least two reloads for it. It may have been a 4 inch .357 Magnum, or a 2 inch Detective Special or Diamondback, Model 10 or 15, or Ruger Speed Six. I never felt I was under gunned. ...

Nicely said.

It's ain't a talisman, it's a tool.

If the type of handgun, caliber or ammo capacity makes you "feel good" about things, you probably aren't really looking at the situation right and don't see how everything might go wrong.

Use the best tool, sure, but make damned sure you've got the understanding, ability and skillset to make the best use of it.