LEO’s: Do You Think 9 Rounds of .45 ACP is Enough?

I do think that LEOs need high capacity firearms. I can think of any number of shootouts where police died after shooting their revolvers dry. These include the 1970 Newhall Incident, the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, and the slaying of NYPD Officer Edward Byrne, 1988.

This is a tough call. You could be minding your own business and suddenly find yourself in the middle of a mass shooting with or without terrorist motivations. You may be called upon to engage a target at far greater distances than what you perceived. In the more likely one-to-one situation, the range or distance will likely be close and most gunmen will break and run upon meeting an armed response. I'm perfectly comfortable with semi-autos with nine-round capacities.

Carry what you feel is necessary. I for one, will not second-guess you.

Edward Byrne was asassinated by drug dealers while sitting in his patrol car in 1988. He never unholsters his weapon.

You’re thinking of Scott Gadell, who was shot in the head while attempting to reload his revolver from dump pouches. It was his murder that the department finally authorized speed loaders.
 
I can fully understand why a LEO retired or not would consider extra ammunition just because of the job related situations you are or would have been placed in. A non-LEO maybe not so much.

Yep you wont need until you do.
 
I just stumbled across this video: Man Gets Fatally Shot After Pointing Gun At Colorado Deputies. Three on one and one officer still emptied his 1911.


Once upon a time S&W did a test series on a random selection of folks abilities to accurately and rapidly engage targets. Once things went past .38 Spl/9 mm the abilities went downhill fast. 37 years experience as an instructor causes me to believe they have a point.
Do you have any further references or information about this?
 
During a seminar I once attended, cops who had been seriously wounded but survived shooting incidents discussed their individual incidents. I think I've mentioned one of the incidents before, but even if so, I'll repeat it.

Once cop, on-duty, had faced an armed suspect (9mm) by himself. As I recall, the distances involved in the incident, during the exchange of gun fire, were later measured to have been as close as 5 feet and as far as 100 feet. The officer said that there came a point when he realized he was loading his last (3rd) 11rd .40 magazine into his duty weapon, and while he was shot and seriously wounded, he'd yet to hit the suspect. He said he realized "he had to stop shooting instinctively, and start aiming". He did, hitting the suspect once and wounding him, causing him to stop shooting at the officer and crawl away, seeking cover. The seriously wounded officer awaited the arrival of the cover units, and the wounded suspect was taken into custody after they arrived.

He wasn't the only cop I've listened to describe their OIS and say how they'd realized they needed to aim their shots to end the incidents.

Then, there's this sort of incident which reminds us of how important it can be to remain calm and aim.

When he approached the Austin Police Department headquarters, Sgt. Adam Johnson shot McQuilliams once from 312 feet away—while holding onto the reigns of two horses. That’s roughly 100 yards.

Cop’s Deadeye Pistol Shot Took Down Austin Gunman at 100 Yards

Treating each shot fired as if it's the most important shot you're going to be able to make isn't exactly a bad idea. (It's certainly prudent to remember that each bullet fired is going to hit something, and that something, if it's not the intended threat target, is probably also going to be found by an attorney at some point.)

I guess I look at it this way ....

If you want to count the rounds in your handgun, that's fine.

Just make sure that in addition to knowing how to count them, you also know how to make them count.
 
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As I recall, the distances involved in the incident, during the exchange of gun fire, were later measured to have been as close as 5 feet and as far as 100 feet.
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Treating each shot fired as if it's the most important shot you're going to be able to make isn't exactly a bad idea. (It's certainly prudent to remember that each bullet fired is going to hit something, and that something, if it's not the intended threat target, is probably also going to be found by an attorney at some point.)

I always enjoy your tips based on your past experience as a trainer. This is how I've had this taught in a couple different defensive pistol courses that were taught by local LEO's. I'm guessing it's how they were taught it.

Out to 3 arm lengths (8 to 10 feet or so), you're shooting from some type of retention, so that's instinctive pointing.

From 3 arm lengths out to a couple car lengths (maybe 8 feet to 20 to 25 feet), you're not using the sights, but indexing on the back plate of the pistol slide for your aim.

Past a couple car lengths, you're acquiring the sights on the pistol.

Based on your experience, what's your thought on that approach? How would you teach use of sights now?
 
I always enjoy your tips based on your past experience as a trainer. This is how I've had this taught in a couple different defensive pistol courses that were taught by local LEO's. I'm guessing it's how they were taught it.

Out to 3 arm lengths (8 to 10 feet or so), you're shooting from some type of retention, so that's instinctive pointing.

From 3 arm lengths out to a couple car lengths (maybe 8 feet to 20 to 25 feet), you're not using the sights, but indexing on the back plate of the pistol slide for your aim.

Past a couple car lengths, you're acquiring the sights on the pistol.

Based on your experience, what's your thought on that approach? How would you teach use of sights now?

Basically, you're describing what's often called indexed/point, flash sight and sighted fire.

Don't forget that it also depends on the size of the intended target area into which you need to make the hits. Then, there's also the potential for the relative motion of both yourself and the threat at the time to take into consideration. I remember some years ago when one major agency had a study done in which it was observed that in almost 64% of their OIS incidents both the officers and their attackers were in motion.

The cranial vault is a very small area, and it might be moving. Sighted (aimed) fire might be critical in order to get the hit(s), even at closer distances.

I've watched some shooters during a more difficult qual scenario miss many, or even all, of their shots on an initial run through it. The scenario required them to move diagonally while advancing toward and across a threat target's position, while firing to obtain several accurate hits. No "cover" was available. The distance from the shooter to the threat target started at approx 9yds and could be as close as approx 4yds, depending on the path used and the shooter's movement. The number of rounds that could be used were limited to a max of the shooter's primary magazine load (which varied from 12-15rds, depending on the weapon). The shooter had to manage recoil and still obtain accurate hits in the short time allotted to traverse the distance. COM hits were encouraged, as was using 2-handed shooting, and the timing/pace of the shots fired were up to the shooter.

Many folks surprised themselves by how well they were able to apply the skills they'd acquired and had been using in other qual/drill scenarios over time, bringing them together.

I remember guy missing with all of his shots, though, and being surprised when I showed him the target. In disbelief he asked me how he could've missed all of his shots. I told him I didn't know, but that whatever he'd been doing, he'd made it look pretty easy. Listening to him, it seemed he thought he'd been pointing the gun, 2-handed, and "shooting instinctively". Well, "instinct" can still be "off".

Then I suggested we try it again, and this time he use either a flash sight picture or aimed/sighted fire, taking whatever fractions of a second he needed in order to accurately put his hits where he wanted them to go, with & between each step he needed to make. His timing on the next run was very close to his first run, but he didn't miss a single hit and he actually looked smoother in his movements. He felt more confident about it afterward, too. (One of the whole points to successful completion of all scenarios and drills was for the shooter to have the demonstrated confidence to know that he/she could DO it again if they needed to, for real, upon leaving the range.)

Don't assume and hope. Put them where you want them to go. Aimed fire, whether "flash" or sighted (using front & rear), can help toward that goal.
 
In my area where there have been 6 murders in the first six weeks of the year .. I'm not sure 9 rounds of anything would be enough .. without at least one reload if you were caught in a bad situation ..
 
Thread still going, huh?

Well, since last we visited, I've usually been carrying either my CS45 (6rd mags), 4040 (7rd mags), a 5-shot J-frame or a LCP (6rd mags).

I may have even topped off the CS45 for a while, making it 6+1.

Still not losing sleep.

I can think of guys I've known who have fired 1-8 rounds during an OIS. A couple of them have owned and carried hi-cap pistols they've used off-duty, but they've also continued to rely upon 6-shot or 5-shot revolvers or an occasional small 9mm, too.

One of them, who has been involved in on & off-duty OIS incidents, often leaves his bigger guns at home, and last I heard from him he'd replaced his Shield 9 with a LCPII.

They tend to pay attention and take their qual/training time seriously, though.
 
I carried a 1911 for many years and I never needed more rounds than I carried. I don't feel the need to elaborate on my personal experiences or the large number of shootings I investigated but I never saw the need for large round counts. Large round counts are a crutch for those that can't shoot and follow the "spray and pray" mind set.

Practice with the firearm you carry and follow the rules of trigger discipline and watch your sights.
 
There has been an average of 5 people per month getting shot and killed so far this year in the area I live in .. that doesn't include the 23 robberies per month also in the area and of those 23 there were 7 on average this past two months that have happened in robberies in peoples drive ways or were home invasions which seem to be the trend that is increasing in my area .. In those 2 to 3 or more Perp's were involved ..

So a pistol with 7 or 8+1 may not be enough if you were to get in a situation with multiple shooters .. And a revolver might be way too little with just 6 or 7 shots initially available before a reload is needed .. I have recently started wearing an extra mag even while relaxing at home not only when out and about the area .. I carry a Beretta PX-4 which is 13+1 so 27 total .. with additional loaded mags available in both my Jeep and home ..
 
I carry my shield 45 with extended mag so it has 8+1 and a spare of 7. If 16 wont get my butt out of a situation I likely should have NOT gotten in to said situation.

I know something may put you there not of your choosing so I do practice shot placement which is far more important than umpteen rounds of whatever.




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The bottom line is that you should carry what you are comfortable with and are capable of concealing effectively. Your training and experience, as well as mindset, are what matters. Statistics would tend to lean toward the fact that most shootings involved a few, close-range shots, but that may not be your experience. I feel comfortable with a 5-shot J-frame and a couple of speed loaders or strips. I also feel comfortable with a single-stack compact 9mm or 1911 with a spare magazine or two, depending on my location or destination. I may even carry a double-stack 9mm or .45, if I feel the need, but as I've said, in my mind, skill, training and experience are unique to each individual and should be included in our considerations.
 
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Keeps coming back to............... "You can't miss too fast!"

Who intentionally presses the trigger expecting to miss?

Ask a bunch of shooters and the answers might surprise you. ;)

Want to gain some insight into a shooter's mindset? Ask them if they fully intend each of their shots to hit their intended target, or if they hope each of their shots hit.
 
In the generally quiet community I served... most of the time my 645 + 2 spare magazines seemed like enough. In the patrol unit, I had a 20" Mossberg 500 with rifle sights (rear aperture removed for a Cooper style ghost ring).
When on foot patrol in certain volatile areas, a M39-2 9mm with 2 spare mags could be concealed in a Miami Classic under a patrol jacket. Compact S&W 45s didn't exist at the time... If they had, it would have been a superior BUG with full sized mags for interchangeability.
 
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I just qualified today at my Department using a 1911 with a seven round mag and one in the chamber. I specifically chose this gun to qualify with because this summer I will be going to Pennsylvania and I may also wind up visiting the Peoples Republic of New Jersey which is only a half mile from where I am going in PA. I may have to cross that bridge that Father George Crossed to get at the Hessians. NJ has a high capacity mag ban as well as no hollow points. I think LEOSA protects me but I may beat the rap but hate the ride downtown. So do I think its enough. Yeah it is, I have never fired more than six in an on duty incident but that was a long time ago before bad guys packed AK's and hand cannons. I will be taking along three extra magazines,but not because I feel the need for them, but more to stick my middle finger at NJ for banning my high capacity 9mm. that holds 16+1.....I will also use 230 grn FMJ ball ammo. That's what the good ole US Army gave me for combat so it probably works on the mean streets of Trenton.
 
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Yes. 8 rounds is enough. Somehow, 8 .45 rounds made it through WWII, Korea and Vietnam. We carried the Sig P220, and no one felt under armed. Most gunfights are at close range and over quickly. IMO, high capacity semi-autos are overrated and seem to contribute to/encourage overkill. The likelihood that you will ever actually need to use your EDC in a violent confrontation is slim. The likeliness that you would need more than 3 or 4 rounds to accomplish your purpose, should you need to fire in self defense, is slim. Just make sure you stay well practiced with your handgun.
 
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