LEO’s: Do You Think 9 Rounds of .45 ACP is Enough?

I'm not a LEO but I think it's important to answer this question from the perspective of an armed civilian. I mostly carry a 1911 and always carry two spare magazines. I do that not because I think I'll need more ammo. I do that because the magazine is the weakest link in the chain of what makes a semi-auto work correctly.

An otherwise well maintained and properly set up semi-auto can always have a magazine-related malfunction. If that happens, and you have no spares, you've now just brought a rock to a gunfight. You need to be able to drop the bad mag and get back in the fight.
 
You guys are really overthinking this. You don't have to be a LEO to figure this out... There are countless surveillance videos on YouTube showing civilian self defense shootings and if 8 rounds isn't enough to solve the problem then I'd say that there is a serious lack of training on your part.

The question was about "duty usage" of a single stack gun, not self defense encounters.
 
On April 11, 1986, a gun battle took place between FBI agents and a pair of hardened armed robbers and murderers in Miami, Florida. It would be as highly publicized as the gunfight at the OK Corral more than a century before, and it would take more lives.

In the course of that shootout, a perpetrator emptied and reloaded a Ruger Mini-14, using up at least one Federal Ordnance 40-round magazine along the way, according to reports. Of the eight involved agents, one was unable to return fire but seven more did. Here is how they fared.

--One agent emptied his .357 Magnum revolver and wounded one of the killers. Shot in the gun hand, he was unable to reload before he was shot in the neck and permanently injured by the perpetrator with the Mini-14.

--One agent lost his service revolver and continued the fight with his 5-shot Chief Special .38 backup revolver. He fired all five shots without being able to neutralize the opponents. He was shot and gravely wounded while attempting to reload with loose cartridges.

--One agent fired all six shots from his service revolver and had to reload with loose cartridges, despite having been wounded. He did not, apparently, hit either of the killers.

--One agent fired a few shots with his S & W M459 9 millimeter pistol, but had lost his glasses in the ramming of the suspects' vehicle that had preceded the shootout and was apparently unable to identify his targets. He was shot down by the killer with the .223 rifle before he could utilize his extensive training to effectively engage his adversaries.

--One agent emptied his 15-shot Model 459, reloaded, and emptied a second magazine. One of his 9mm Silvertips tore through the primary antagonist's right arm and into his chest, severing the plural artery and causing a mortal wound that did not take immediate effect. It was after this bullet hit him that the killer shot down five of the seven wounded agents, two of whom died. When he shot THIS agent, the latter's pistol was empty, it's slide locked back on it's second and last magazine.

--One agent emptied his Model 459, wounding the primary gunman once and possibly rendering him incapable of shooting any longer with that hand; he was subsequently observed to fire weak hand only. This agent's slide locked back after 15 rounds and he drew his Smith & Wesson Model 60 Chief's Special from his ankle holster and fired one .38 Special round at the suspects before reloading his 9mm auto. This agent who took effective cover and a controlling posture, would be the only involved FBI man to survive the firefight unscathed.

--One agent, severely wounded in the left arm by .223 fire early in the firefight, emptied his Remington 870 pump shotgun one-handed, wounding both perpetrators but not neutralizing either. This heroic lawman ended the fight by staggering up to the getaway car and shooting the gunmen three times each with lead hollowpoint 158-grain .38 Special bullets from his service revolver, killing both instantly. As he collapsed near their corpses, the sixgun in his hand had been emptied.

The gunbattle had been a lasting lesson in the importance of firepower. FBI subsequently authorized field agents to carry high capacity 9mm autos or 8-to 9-shot .45 autos for the first time in the Bureau's history. The agents using 9mm pistols in the Miami fight were specially authorized to do so because they were SWAT members. In addition, agents were issued the HK MP5SF, a compact 9mm semiautomatic carbine with a 32-round magazine.

I remember someone writing about Ayoob's poor write up of the Miami shootout, this is good evidence that person was right. The guy with the Chief's Special had a 38 FBI load that ended up punching through a bunch of tissue and ended up bouncing off his skull and bruising his central nervous system, knocking him out for most of the fight, when he did reawaken he was basically incapacitated and only managed to stumble his way from the bank robber's car into the FBI agent's car. One of his 5 shots made a huge difference that day.

The real nonsense here is that Dove's Silvertip was the bullet that killed the robber with the Mini-14, not the agent at the end of the fight with the 870 Remington who fired the last shots. The Silvertip fatally wounded him but came within an inch of his heart and stopping him before he killed the two agents, so the bullet failed that day. Dove's gun WASN'T empty, it was struck by a bullet and malfunctioned, no amount of magazine capacity or even a dozen extra magazines would have helped him after his gun was jammed up beyond fixing. Grogan wasn't completely out of the fight because he lost his glasses, he was busy trying to help Dove unjam his wrecked S&W pistol when they were both overran by the mortally wounded bank robber and killed.

The bank robber with the Mini-14 wasn't killed instantly by a shot from the revolver by the wounded agent who also fired the shotgun, he bled to death from the earlier wound, so this is pure nonsense. The agent didn't collapse near the corpses of the robbers, both were in the seat of an FBI car, one dead and the other still so alive that paramedics tried to save him after the fight was over, before that fatal wound finally bled him out.

Lot of factual errors and oversights, but then again experts can't be right all the time either.

Some good cases for extra ammunition, but be careful of cherry picking. Keep in mind, as I mentioned earlier about string shooting, a rapid firing officer might find himself out of ammunition very quickly as well, wonder if there are any case studies on situations where people have burnt through 45 rounds of ammunition before being killed or overrun by an attacker? The 15 round magazine, high capacity 9mm's didn't save the FBI agents that day in Miami. Plenty of good men in the field DIDN'T kill the guy on the 28th shot, or the last shot in their gun. Plenty of times when the extra rounds in a magazine or the extra magazines carried with didn't save the day.

I agree the main advantage of extra capacity, but more the advantage of more magazines, is that one can cover oneself and others in a heavy engagement, more rounds means more time. In that case, how much of an advantage is a 20 round magazine over a 15, or a 15 over a 13, or a 13 over a 10? Is the 45 ACP, 9 round magazine with the officer carrying more magazines at that great of a disadvantage? Or for that matter, is the 9mm 15 round magazine at any real disadvantage than the 18 or 20? Again, modern training is to dump a magazine under cover wither its empty or not. In some cases we see the officer getting the stopping shot after a reload and cooling off, not snapping off the last round in the magazine after a string.

Good case studies listed, but more study and more cases can only teach you more. And its good to make sure you get the facts straight before drawing too many conclusions.
 
I retired 16 months ago after a 38 year law enforcement career in California. I was a Chief of Police 23 years as in a very small agency. I carried a 1911 pistol for 20+ years both on and off duty as a Chief. I changed the policy when I became a Chief that the Officer could carry almost anything that they could qualify and train with. The Department supplied the ammunition. I still carry 1911s today as a retired officer.

On duty, I carried 4 extra magazines on my duty belt. Off duty at least extra magazine. Guns were and are Springfield, Les Baer and Colt. We had our own gunsmith but really never experienced any failures with the weapons.

I was fortunate enough to receive training from Col. Jeff Cooper and many others that were instructors under his leadership. I was also fortunate enough to train with Larry Vickers, Ed Stock and his brothers and Scotty Reitz to name just a few.

In my opinion, the 1911 pistol should be used by someone who is willing to train with professionals and maintain proficiency with the weapons system. You must also be prepared to maintain the weapon.
 
Nine Is Fine/ If?

Guys this is directed more towards the LEO’s out there, and concerns the duty usage of .45 ACP handguns holding 8 rounds of ammunition in the magazine, namely the 1911 and SIG P220 as well as others.

For a main service weapon, do you think 8+1 of .45 ACP is enough in the gun, with 2 or more magazines in reserve for reloads? Interested in what our brave law enforcers on this board, both past and present, have to say on this subject. Thanks in advance! :)

-Jay
Might be fine if there's only 9 perps and you're an expert marksman. But if there's a 10th one? Seriously, uniformed officers are as apt to be engaged in a fire fight as a SD situation.
A well armed perp in a building will require, perhaps more than a dozen engagement shots before SWAT or lots of backup arrive.
Todays semi's uniformed officers carry are well suited for this.
As for personal SD situations, cops off duty, retired or you fine
citizens a few loads and (regardless of so many of these "mag" discussions) no extra mags will be fine.
Most of these are at garlic breath distance and FAST. Been there.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo
 
One or two criminals willing to die is rare. Ten criminals willing to die all at the same time?
 
Might be fine if there's only 9 perps and you're an expert marksman. But if there's a 10th one? Seriously, uniformed officers are as apt to be engaged in a fire fight as a SD situation.
A well armed perp in a building will require, perhaps more than a dozen engagement shots before SWAT or lots of backup arrive.
Todays semi's uniformed officers carry are well suited for this.
As for personal SD situations, cops off duty, retired or you fine
citizens a few loads and (regardless of so many of these "mag" discussions) no extra mags will be fine.
Most of these are at garlic breath distance and FAST. Been there.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

If you face ten men willing to fight you to the death, chances are you won't be able to take all ten of them down with 20 rounds in a magazine before they get YOU. That's kind of the point with some of these situations that could happen, at some point the limitation is with the handgun's ability to stop a determined attacker and the number of men a man can kill or stop before they successfully fight back. Shoot all the IDPA drills you want, if any of those ten men have a gun, is your lat target, and is worth his salt he'll probably get you (maybe) by the time you get around to shooting him once. At some point, with a handgun, more rounds in the magazine in a situation like that might mean you'll just die with more unfired rounds in the gun.

If I have to face down ten men, I'd rather have my battle rifle, and ambush them. Hell, I'd like a light machine gun if I could get my hands on one in that situation. More rounds in a handgun will only do you so much in many real life scenarios.
 
If you face ten men willing to fight you to the death, chances are you won't be able to take all ten of them down with 20 rounds in a magazine before they get YOU. That's kind of the point with some of these situations that could happen, at some point the limitation is with the handgun's ability to stop a determined attacker and the number of men a man can kill or stop before they successfully fight back. Shoot all the IDPA drills you want, if any of those ten men have a gun, is your lat target, and is worth his salt he'll probably get you (maybe) by the time you get around to shooting him once. At some point, with a handgun, more rounds in the magazine in a situation like that might mean you'll just die with more unfired rounds in the gun.

If I have to face down ten men, I'd rather have my battle rifle, and ambush them. Hell, I'd like a light machine gun if I could get my hands on one in that situation. More rounds in a handgun will only do you so much in many real life scenarios.


Well 10 to 1....... calling Bruce Willis or that crazy Aussie dude.........

That said; your right ....I'm going down..... but I'd rather not do it sitting there looking at an empty gun with the slide locked back!
 
I was shooting the breeze with a Las Vegas Metro Officer. My wife took a photo. He was carrying a 1911. Check out his belt....

Considering how fast a semi-auto reload can be done it seems to me that the more important factor would be the number of magazines carried, rather than the capacity of the gun.
 
My personal feeling is that any LEO who carries a 1911 .45 will be proficient enough not to feel inadequately armed due to the guns magazine limitations. He will be an experienced hand gunner and confident in his shooting ability.

But.... he will not limit him or herself to just the 8+1 capacity of one magazine. Any serious Leo would have at least one, and probably two spare magazines about his person.

The problem lies in police departments which, for various reasons usually pertaining to liability and PR, will stipulate a 9mm (or possibly still at .40 caliber firearm. In which case the 1911 carrier


will have a 9 +1, or probably even a 10 + 1, magazine capacity.
And one of this big issues will be that many LEO's, especially in large departments, will simply not be a "handgun" person. They will show up to qualify, pass what is a relatively easy course of fire, and seldom fire another shot until the next qualification.

I am our firearms instructor and carry a Remington R1 Commander off duty. IMHO if you carry a 1911 on duty or off duty
it's the same since you never know what's coming down the pike. I carry 9 in the gun and two eight round magazines in a nylon pouch with velcroed flaps. It works very well. I carry it both IWB and OWB in a good leather holster.

I shoot about three to four times a month because I enjoy it. Yes there are many who don't shoot much and shouldn't carry anything they are not used to. There is much to be said about carrying a Glock 23 which I also carry on duty as a back up since it uses the same magazines as my duty weapon. Many departments are switching to Glock 17's and 19's. With the advancements in 9mm ammo it works well.

As a Boy Scout I was always taught to be prepared, so, that means practicing. It's just like playing an instrument, to play it well takes practice. With a shooting you rarely get a muligan.
 
I would also ad that the 1911 in the commander size isn IMHO the perfect carry weapon and it points naturally for me.
 
I started my LEO career with wheel-guns in 1977, worked U/C with a 1911 and a PPKS, and then ended up as a firearms instructor/range master and oversaw the conversion to 645s, 4506s and 4516s. I've got to say, I never felt outgunned with any of these. On patrol, I had my 28-2 and two dump pouches, then speed loaders. U/C I had the Combat Commander and two 7 round mags for warrant service. If actually U/C, I had the PPKS with one spare magazine. When we went to the S&W 45s, I carried two spare magazines in uniform, plain clothes and off-duty.

Later, we went to the Glock 21 with 13 round mags for a total of 40 rounds. That was a lot of ammo. Then Sig 226 with 46 rounds in 3 mags, followed by Glock 17s/19s, again, with a lot of rounds. Point being, I never felt any more secure with higher capacity magazines than I did with the revolvers and single-stack magazine models. Confidence in my training and ability was sufficient.

As a firearms instructor/range master, I taught accurate shooting under combat conditions. In both departments in which I worked, we stressed accountability for your rounds. The spray and pray mentality wasn't part of our program.

Having been retired for 4 years now, I tend to carry a Commander-sized 1911, a J-frame, or a small, concealable 9mm. I always carry reloads, but I find myself reverting to the old ways of ensuring full accountability of my rounds fired. Not as likely these days that I'll face an armed desperado as we all did in our duty years, but still ready and willing if required.

I don't mean this little diatribe to belittle any of those who prefer to carry multiple higher capacity pistols and magazines; I've never heard anyone complain that they had too much ammunition when things got lethal. Guess I'm just getting more nostalgic in my old age.
 
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When the rounds are incoming it doesn't matter what you're carrying, it feels like you want more ammo and bigger gun. An example:
Dec 2, 1996 we did a raid on a hotel room to arrest a fugitive. I was off duty at the time and at dinner with my wife. I only had my S&W 649 and 2 speed loaders in the car. I got a call from one of my SAs who had located the guy in a hotel room. We got our team together to make the arrest. When we attempted to go thru the door he opened up on us firing a TEC-9 with 1 hand and a Colt .380 in the other. Sounded like a machine gun. In a couple of seconds he fired 11 rounds at us before he shot and killed himself. Sure wish I had more ammo and a bigger gun even tho I never fired a round.
Now go to Sept 1997. We were attempting to take a woman into involuntary committal when she fired on us with a 12 ga shotgun with Hornady sabot slugs. At that time I was carrying my issued S&W 5904, my S&W 645, the 649, and an 870. There were about a dozen of us armed. Even tho none of us fired when her 12 ga went off wished I'd brought more gun and more friends.
Now that I'm retired my usual summer carry is the same 649, PPK/s, or a .40 Shield. Winter time it's usually a Glock 23 or 457. I'm not going thru doors anymore or running to the sound of gunfire. I don't have fantasies about being confronted by 10 gunmen. I live in the real and normal world.
 
When the rounds are incoming it doesn't matter what you're carrying, it feels like you want more ammo and bigger gun. .

AMEN to that.

If I were working dope raids and warrant service now...

I'd want a 458 SOCOM instead of the 5.56.

A handgun is...well handy. But, I much prefer a short handy carbine for business.

I do carry the Gov't model 45 acp regularly in town, as my personal defense sidearm .
.
 
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For a main service weapon, do you think 8+1 of .45 ACP is enough in the gun, with 2 or more magazines in reserve for reloads?


In one word NO. But it depends where you work and what your current assignment is. A lot, if not most departments dictate what you carry, how and where on your belt (this is really frustrating but it falls under the "department traditions" and you just have to go along with it).

I don't have to follow so strict rules and I carry 3 spare mags (total of 68 rounds) while in uniform. In plain clothes I carry 1 spare mag (total of 34 rounds, same as off duty). There's always more in the vehicle though...

Some people roll their eyes when they see 3 spare mags but I rather have it and don't need it than the other way around, especially when I'm in the middle of nowhere and back-up might take 20-30 min to get there. Plus, I really don't care how people feel about it.

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