Cartridge Power in Triple Lock .455 Days, etc.

[Texas Star]

I'm interested in the strength of the guns, as a buyer might be in WW I. If one could select the strongest DA .455, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Colt New Service, with heat-treated cylinders a good while before S&W finally added that feature. US M-1917's were heat-treated, but only because the govt. required that. The .455 guns were not, and one wants to remember that in using modern .45 ACP and .45 Colt ammo in conversions.

But both the TL and the Second Model seem to have been approved for fring all .455, inc. the more powerful .455 Colt and .455 MK I, and .476.

In 1913, Webley widened the cylinder of the MK V to make it safer with smokeless loads. This was the primary difference between MK IV and V .455's.

I think that all Colt, Webley (after 1913), and S&W .455's made for smokeless powder are safe with factory loaded .455 Colt and .476 loads. It's only when handloaders try to heat up those cartridges that one may get in trouble with higher pressures.

Is that the conclusion of our experts ?

Back when they were new or soon after, I'd be trying to load my .455 with comercial Canadian or USA made .455 Colt ammo. The added velocity would be welcome in that mild cartridge, if still not quite up to .45 Colt power. However, it comes very close to US Govt. loaded .45 Colt or .45 S&W, for the Schofield.

If memory serves, the .45 Schofield and US-loaded .45 Colt used a 230 grain bullet at a nominal 725 FPS with 28 grains of black powder. The .455 Colt gave 750 FPS with a 265 grain bullet. British loaded .455 MK I gave .455 Colt stats. The shorter .455 MK II dropped velocity to 620 FPS. And many lots of ammo did not reach over 600 FPS.

Bear in mind that US Army M-1909 .45 Colt cases had a wider rim, but identical ballistics to the earlier .45 Schofield power. Apparently, the Army felt that enough for fighting fanatic tribesmen in the Philippines, although the .45 ACP, adopted in 1911, raised velocity by about 100 FPS.

 

[Drm50]

I've got a Colt NS .455 Brit marked. It's in top condition but I have no reason to run it hot. I'm shooting duplication of original BP loading with Unique. I modified a 45/70 mold to come up with
both weight and bullet diameter. It's only running approx 600fps.
I think a good man at 100yds could catch bullet in a baseball glove.

 

[rct269]

I don't know what the level of interest might be, but S&W's 1925 catalog devotes a page to "BALLISTICS of REVOLVER CARTRIDGES". The leaders of the pack are the .44 Special (246 grain bullet at 791 fps with muzzle energy of 333 ft. lbs.); .45 Colt (255 grain bullet at 770 fps with muzzle energy of 336 ft. lbs.); and the .45 Auto/Auto Rim (200 grain bullet (??) at 910 fps with muzzle energy of 368 ft. lbs.).

As to heat treating, this may be an apples to oranges bit because it's from a 1934 letter (from D.B. Wesson to a pesky customer); but it's interesting nonetheless. (This customer has ordered a pair of Outdoorsman---one .22. one 38/44, and he's inquiring as to heat treating (among other things).) It goes like this: "The steel that is used in the cylinder of the K-22 is identical in formula with that used in the larger calibers (spelled calibres at the time) but it is not heat treated after machining as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening. As a matter of fact, even in our larger calibres the steel as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength in the neighborhood of 80,000 lbs., which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity, but we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety that is obtained with the 130,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives." (Note all that is applicable to 1934 steel---and I have no clue as to how WWI vintage steel would compare.)

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, this customer specified "Light trigger pulls---to match"---and he got 'em----no extra charge. My how times have changed!!

 

[Muley Gil]

I've got a Colt NS .455 Brit marked. It's in top condition but I have no reason to run it hot. I'm shooting duplication of original BP loading with Unique. I modified a 45/70 mold to come up with
both weight and bullet diameter. It's only running approx 600fps.
I think a good man at 100yds could catch bullet in a baseball glove.

Let me know when you try that. I wanna come watch. I had a Model 1 1/2 in .32 S&W (Short) and that round was so slow I almost felt the same way. Notice I said "almost".

 

[Skeetr57]

I once owned a NS Colt in .455, and it was chambered for the Mkll cartridge which meant that it would chamber and fire .45ACP without half moon clips. I had both a box of CIL .455 Colt ammo and a bunch of Brit issue .455 in 12 rd boxes, and I shot both through the Colt. On one occasion my targets were cedar blocks which were leftover from trimming cedar fence posts. They made good targets as they were about 3" in diameter and 5to6" long. I shot them with both the .45 ACP and the .455 ammo. When the targets were hit with the ACP rounds, the bullet passed right through, leaving the blocks intact and suitable for use as targets again. When shot with the .455 rounds, the blocks were blown into small splinters. From that experience, I deduced that the .455 was a more effective round for anti personnel use. I don't think that a baseball glove, even a catchers mitt would slow either one down.

 

[S&WIowegan]

Ralph,

I don't doubt the credibility of your story but I believe old DB Wesson was speaking from the grave in 1934. Perhaps Doug Wesson spoke for him.

 

[jb28]

How accurate was the quoted velocity of the rounds back then? Were the chronographs of the day accurate, or did the marketing guys fudge the numbers a bit to out do their competition?

 

[Texas Star]

How accurate was the quoted velocity of the rounds back then? Were the chronographs of the day accurate, or did the marketing guys fudge the numbers a bit to out do their competition?

In the few cases where I've seen these loads and the .38-200 fired over modern chronographs, the ballistics check out pretty close to old published figures. I've seen .455 MK II clocked from 599 to 625 FPS, within the accepted range. The old .45 Colt black powder load was a 250 grain bullet at 910 FPS from a 7.5 inch barrel.

The .45 Colt has for years been listed at 860 FPS in smokeless loads, BUT...from a 5.5 inch barrel. If fired in a 7.5 incher, it would be warmer. But it seems to have been generally accepted in the early 1900's that the BP load was hotter than the smokeless one. Keith seemed to feel that way in, Sixguns.
If you haven't read that book, shame on you!

Has anyone here got a chrony and clocked modern .45 Colt or .455 loads? So few fire any .455 ammo that it's hard to find reports. Normal .44 Special is weaker than listed. I've seen its 246 grain bullet clocked at about 700 FPS, well under specs.

The only account of field effectiveness I have firsthand is a letter from the late Jeff Cooper. He shot a Japanese soldier from very close range as the Jap jumped on a log nearby. He (Cooper) had a Colt SAA .45 with 5.5 inch barrel. He meant to fire twice, but the first bullet blew his enemy off the log and dropped him stone dead.

Jeff soon became concerned about how slow it is to reload a SA revolver and for that and other reasons, switched to a Colt .45 auto. Many of us have seen pictures of those very guns in his articles over the decades after he began writing. He used the .45 auto twice in postwar years. In both cases, he got one shot kills. The longest was at about 50-60 yards, as an insurgent fired at him and others as they passed in a Jeep. Jeff fired back with his .45 and dropped the Commie, who was using a Sten gun.

Some call such reports"anecdotal", but few would stand in front of Lt. Col. Cooper, USMC, and call them "anecdotal" to his face!

I recently corresponded with a member here who will remain anonymous, unless he steps in and has no reluctance to relate his gunfight experiences on the open board. One felon who he shot had just shot another cop with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. A very odd gun for one of his background, which can't be related here, due to the Rules. This man had just participated in a robbery of a retail store.

His bullet stuck the cop in the upper chest and instantly floored him, taking him out of the subsequent exchange of shots. The officer was transported to hospital and recovered, but died due to a transfusion being tainted with Hepatitis. The point is, he dropped right then, after being shot with a single .45 Colt round to the upper chest and was unable to fight further. I don't know the barrel length of the Ruger, nor the exact .45 Colt ammo used. I doubt it was Federal's 225 grain lead HP, as it's so sparsely distributed.

In every case over the years where I've seen the .45 Colt used in a shooting, the reports said the man struck went down at once and usually died then, not later. The poor cop cited above is the sole exception to the "later." And he died of contaminated blood, not the actual wound.

Cooper once studied shootings with the .45 auto in a S. CA police dept. that had adopted the Colt auto. In 19 of the 20 cases studied, the felon dropped dead. A pretty good record for the .45 auto.

In WW I, Sgt. York killed eight Germans within seconds with his .45 auto. One shot per man. Elmer Keith's friend Capt. Bill Strong said he fired several magazines from his M-1911 in one battle and didn't think he missed a shot. It was inferred that all said Germans dropped and died.

The best account of the .455 I've found was a British officer in WW I who shot quite a few Germans in one battle. I don't recall the number of shots fired, but all went down with one shot each and his kill total was quite high, I think about 40 men! This was in, Gun Digest some years back, in an article by a British author.

I suspect that at very close range, the .455 in both lengths, the .45 Colt, and the .45 auto are all very effective.

 

[ddixie884]

TS, I agree with your assessment of the cartridges as posted. In Handloader a discription of the M 1909 said it was 250gr at 725fps. In the LaGarde tests on cattle the .455 was considered the more impressive. and my CIL .455 Colt says on the box 265gr at 770fps. Keith said the .45 Colt BP loads were 900fps but smokless was more like 850. This is all just random info to add to your musings. Hope it helps..........

Edit; that was the 476 in the Thompson LaGarde tests on cattle. The CIL .455 I have was distributed by Speer.

 

[jb28]

TS.
thanks for the detailed reply. Yes I have a copy of Six Guns and have read it a few times. It's a great cabin book. .
I was just wondering if factory ammo of that period gave higher #'s for velocity than actual gun in the hand results. Kind of like some reloading manual velocities vs actual.

 

[jb28]

Ddixie884. Thanks also. On my phone and my typing sucks at the best of times

 

[rct269]

MY-MY-MY

Ralph,

I don't doubt the credibility of your story but I believe old DB Wesson was speaking from the grave in 1934. Perhaps Doug Wesson spoke for him.

"Doug" Wesson did indeed speak, but for himself-----and signed the letter "D. B. Wesson, Vice President". I reckon his granddaddy figured it was okay. You reckon folks would understand it better if I identified the players as new D.B. Wesson and old D.B. Wesson? Or better yet, how 'bout a little review of history? We could call it The Life of Douglas B. Wesson, 101-Remedial. And with thanks to Mr. Jinks who did all the legwork when he wrote the introduction to "D. B.Wesson's Scrap Book" (titled The Life of Douglas B. Wesson), here are the first two lines (in part): "Douglas Baird Wesson was born in 1884 the son of Joseph Hawes Wesson, who was the youngest son of Danial Baird Wesson co-founder of S&W."

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

I have to ask how you chamber a 45 ACP without a rim into a cylinder of a revolver? There were 45 Auto-rim cartridges, but I can't figure out what would hold an ACP round in place in any revolver?

The standard pressures listed for the 45 ACP is 19,000 to 21,000 PSI, while the pressures for a 455 is documented as 13,000 PSI which is 30% less than the ACP round.

The 455 was a very unique round for us here in the US and have been loaded with just about every bullet that was used in Colts for some time. When I started shooting my 455s, I found Fiocchi for sale which was a conical RN with a hollow base as the originals. I quickly found that my 455s did not like RNFP solid base bullets and while I could hit paper, the accuracy was not good. Finally found a mold that duplicated the originals. It casts a 265 grain Mk II hollow base bullet and the accuracy is amazing. I believe the hollow base is the key to accuracy in this caliber and they perform very well.

Why would anyone want to "heat up" a one hundred year old revolver? First of all, it is a total disregard to the value of the gun and its historical significance, it is just plain dumb. No one knows how these guns spent their life and how many times the metals were stressed beyond safe limits due to overloading, double-charging, stuck bullets, wrong caliber ammo, etc.. An analogy is that we lose a few WWII fighter planes every year to those who think the can do barrel rolls and dives with them. These are pieces of history, not someone's toy and should be respected for their significance in American history. Well at the rate they are crashing, how many years before they are all gone?

 

[Skeetr57]

It is quite easy to load and fire .45 ACP in a revolver with a proper chamber for it. It will headspace on the mouth of the case just like it does in the automatics designed for it. My 1917 S&W, both military issue and commercial, 1950 target and 1955 target will all fire .45 ACP without moon clips, you just have to pick or punch out the empties. Most .455 revolvers are chambered for the longer Mk l case and won't fire the ACP without clips, but the Colt NS that I had was chambered for the Mk ll case and fired the ACP just fine. The only .455 that I shot for accuracy was a Webley Mk Vl that I shot at a GI garbage can at 110 paces using 1943 steel case GI ball ammo. I could hit the GI can every shot sitting with my knees as a rest.

 

[glowe]

Thanks Tom, the extraction of the spent case was the issue I was thinking about and there is no solution other than a stick to remove fired cases. I guess my question still is does original the S&W 455 have the right chamber for the 45 ACP? The brass is almost identical in length?

 

[PJGP]

I guess my question still is does original the S&W 455 have the right chamber for the 45 ACP? The brass is almost identical in length?

The S&W HE Mark II has a chamfer between the chamber and the cylinder throat. A 45 ACP case goes in until the face of the head is about 1/16" below the rear face of the cylinder.

The Colt 455 NS has a step between the chamber and the cylinder throat. However, despite what Skeetr57 says above about firing 45 ACP in his NS I cannot see how this can work. I just tried 45 cases in two 455 NS revolvers and the face of the case is below, but nearly flush with, the rear face of the cylinder. The hammer noses barely touch the primer, if that. I didn't attempt to "bust the caps", but can do so if anyone wants me to. I would ask you to clean the guns afterwards if that was possible, they are part of my collection!

Peter

 

[Skeetr57]

Gary:
Gary: My .455 HE Second Model has a chamber cut for the .455 Mk l case, so the shoulder in the chamber is too far forward to use .45ACP ammo without clips. My Colt NS had chambers cut for the .455 Mk ll case so it worked with the ACP rounds. On the other hand, it is my understanding that early Colt 1917's had no shoulder in the chambers, so could not be used without clips. I have only owned one Colt 1917 and don't recall what type of chambers it had, and I never tried firing it without clips.

 

[Skeetr57]

About case extraction: When fired in a revolver with a proper length chamber, such as a M1917 S&W or M25 S&W, without moon clips, there is a gap of about 0.030" between the rear face of the cylinder and the forward edge of the case rim. This space is normally occupied by the moon clip, but when used without the clips it provides adequate space for a fingernail to catch and pull out the cases. I have not had any problem extracting cases this way in any of te .45ACP chambered guns I have owned, even with te 1943 steel case ammo but a rough or dirty chamber might require that they be poked out.

 

[Muley Gil]

"I have to ask how you chamber a 45 ACP without a rim into a cylinder of a revolver? There were 45 Auto-rim cartridges, but I can't figure out what would hold an ACP round in place in any revolver?"

For about 50 years, Ruger has built single action revolvers in .357/9mm, .45 Colt/.45 ACP and .30 carbine. The convertible revolvers have two different cylinders. The 9, the ACP and the carbine round all head space on the case mouth, just like they would in semi or full auto firearms.

I have a New Model Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .45 Colt/.45 ACP that has seen very, very few Colt rounds through it. I prefer to use the ACP cylinder in this revolver. It is very accurate. Factory ammo is cheaper and more varied in the ACP round.

 

[PJGP]

The hammer noses barely touch the primer, if that. I didn't attempt to "bust the caps", but can do so if anyone wants me to. I would ask you to clean the guns afterwards if that was possible, they are part of my collection!Peter

OK, I was wrong! I tried capped 45 cases in a 1916 455 NS and they all went bang; this did surprise me I have to admit. Of course the spent caps blew out the back of the cases because of the excessive head space. I cleaned the gun myself!

By the way, every 455 revolver model of which I am aware was\is chambered for the Mark I case. This most definitely includes the Colt NS; all of mine (from 1900 to 1938) are so chambered.

Peter