686 Plus for next grail?

Det-Sog

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THANK YOU for all of the help picking the 686 for my next grail. I AM listening. Please help me tack this down further... "MY" choices are either (can't afford both) the following:

1. A pre-lock 686 plus. These are rare, but can be found in great shape for around $1000 +/- if you hunt. -OR-

2. A modern 686+ Pro series cut for moon clips... I can get one of these for about the same price as the pre-lock version with no moon clips.

I really like the idea of the moon clips, but I'm not sure if that's a deal maker/breaker. I want a 4" bbl. I don't want longer or shorter, so these two models stand out.

I have not completely ruled out a standard 6-shot pre-lock version either, but at this point' I'm 90% sure I'm going to go with the 7-shooter.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance. I love this place. Great information!!!
 
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I would go moon clips, but I’m sure someone will be along to scare you with urban legends about the IL


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I assume you mean a 686-4+, with the firing pin on the hammer. With a little luck and persistence you can find a 4" pre-lock 686-4+ for a good price. I recently found one ANIB for $600. Many people don't understand the difference in desirability between the standard and plus versions. Don't be in a rush.
 
Question: I do not understand the need/desire for moon clips on a Model 686+ other than faster loading? Thank you!

The loading may be faster if you have the clips loaded in advance and are carrying them but, for me at the range when shooting a 100 or more rounds the clips just slow me down. Personally I prefer speed loaders over moon clips for carry use.
 
Moonclips work best in the .45 revolvers, with short "fat" bullets that feed easily into the large holes in the cylinder. Exhibit A is how well that works for Jerry Miculek in his Mdl 625. In a .357 revolver, the length of the bullet makes it a little harder to guide them into the cylinder (and it's even harder with a 7 shot cylinder, where the rounds are closer together). Lead bullets can get caught more easily on the edges of the charge holes; JHPs or RNFP bullets are probably the most efficiently loaded (all this applies to speedloaders as well as moonclips). In addition, for moonclips, any ammo chosen needs to be loaded into the clips and tested to make sure it works with the particular revolver, since the rims and grooves of some types of rounds do not match up well with all moon clips, which come in several thicknesses, and thus do not feed well -- and sometimes not at all. So moonclips are pretty neat, but not all joy and happiness in their use.

So although I have a Mdl 640 and a Mdl 586 that are moonclipped, and I enjoy working with the moonclips, I would not judge this feature to be essential to enjoying a 686 Plus. To me, the best part of the 686 is that it is heavy and steady, and can use ammo ranging from light .38 Special wadcutters to hot 125 grain JHPs that clock out at 1500 fps or more. This is a revolver that is fun to shoot, easy to shoot, and can handle most tasks well. You can hunt with it, plink with it, carry it as a woods gun, enjoy it at the range, keep it around to defend the homestead, etc.

It makes a great grail gun -- you can find them for $700 new and I imagine you can occasionally find a deal on a used one. If you are taking the time to find a good used one, it might be rewarding to find one old enough to not have the IL. (I had one, sold it, and thought about it continually until I came back many years later and bought a new one with the IL). Mine is a 3" beauty, but there is no doubt the 4" gives you a better sight radius and perhaps 100 fps more velocity for each inch more barrel (see Ballistics by the Inch).

And then there are all the options with different grips... yep, the 686 is a great gun, often touted as the gun to have if you can only have one handgun...
 

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^^^ Perfectly summed it up. That’s what I was looking for. Thank you SW Rover... No moon clips then.


I assume you mean a 686-4+, with the firing pin on the hammer. With a little luck and persistence you can find a 4" pre-lock 686-4+ for a good price. I recently found one ANIB for $600. Many people don't understand the difference in desirability between the standard and plus versions. Don't be in a rush.


Agreed. I see there are a few good -4 + finds out there. I just have to look for the right one. I won’t lie, this is going to be a Christmas present for myself, so surely I would like to find one before then. Regardless, I’ll wait for the right one.

As has been said, I agree that if I could only have ONE revolver, it would be a 686.

Thanks again all. I know what I’m going to get now.
 
THANK YOU for all of the help picking the 686 for my next grail. I AM listening. Please help me tack this down further... "MY" choices are either (can't afford both) the following:

1. A pre-lock 686 plus. These are rare, but can be found in great shape for around $1000 +/- if you hunt. -OR-

2. A modern 686+ Pro series cut for moon clips... I can get one of these for about the same price as the pre-lock version with no moon clips.

I really like the idea of the moon clips, but I'm not sure if that's a deal maker/breaker. I want a 4" bbl. I don't want longer or shorter, so these two models stand out.

I have not completely ruled out a standard 6-shot pre-lock version either, but at this point' I'm 90% sure I'm going to go with the 7-shooter.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance. I love this place. Great information!!!

IMHO---A PRE-LOCK M686+ MOUNTAIN GUN IS THE PICK OF THE LITTER. MINE IS SHOWN ON THE LEFT, IN THE 3 MG PIC BELOW. I PURCHASED IT USED W/O BOX OR PAPERS, WITHOUT ANYTHING MORE THAN A CURSORY GLANCE. I WAS LOOKING FOR A KNOCK AROUND FIELD GUN, SO THAT I COULD SPARE ONE OF MY ROYAL BLUE PYTHONS FROM EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS......

WHEN MY WAITNG PERIOD WAS OVER, I TOOK THE GUN HOME. IT WAS THEN THAT I NOTICED THAT IT HAD MOUNTAIN GUN SCRIPT, AND IT WAS A 7 SHOT. THIS WAS SOMETIME IN THE EARLY 1990s, AND I HAVEN'T SEEN ANOTHER FOR SALE SINCE......

I WOULD SAY THAT YOU WOULD BE EQUALLY WELL SERVED BY A M686-4. THE -4 IS CONSIDERED BY MOST, TO BE THE FINEST ITERATION OF THE M686. IT HAS ALL OF THE FEATURES THAT YOU NEED W/O THE IL. A 7 SHOT MIGHT BE DIFFICULT TO FIND, BUT A 7 SHOT CYLINDER COULD BE FITTED TO YOUR GUN, IF YOU REALLY WANTED ONE. YOU COULD EVEN PURCHASE AN UNFLUTED CYLINDER, FOR A UNIQUE CUSTOM LOOK. IT COULD EVEN BE CUT FOR MOON CLIPS.......

THIS IS PROBABLY A REVOLVER THAT YOU WILL OWN FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. BUY IT OR BUILD IT, JUST THE WAY YOU WANT IT---AND ENJOY IT......
 

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I have not completely ruled out a standard 6-shot pre-lock version either, but at this point' I'm 90% sure I'm going to go with the 7-shooter.

I have two of the 686-4 models - one a 6" six shot bought new in 1994 and the other is a 686+ 2.5" model bought used. I too would not mind adding a 4" version. But I have two Model 66s that are 4" that sort of fill that role.

I would not pass on a good deal for a 6 shot. Mine are range guns and not having the 7 shot is not a deal breaker. At the time I bought mine I was looking for a 2.5" and the one I found just happened to be a 7 shot. For defensive revolver the 7 shot is a great feature.

Good luck finding your 686!
 
Don't pass on a 686-5 plus just because of the MIM. The frame mounted firing pin is more durable and the front sight is easily changed if damaged as it is pinned in. The MIM hammer and trigger is simply not an issue. In my mind it sits right next to the -4 as the best version that was offered in 7 shot.
 
I agree on not passing up a -5. If you intend to shoot high volumes through the gun, the hammer-mounted firing pin is a wear part that eventually will break. Spares are getting harder to come by all the time. The frame mounted pins can break as well, but at least they are a current production part and can be more easily sourced.
 
Great intel on the -5.. I'll look for one of those also. My 629 has MIM and has had no related issues.

I agree about the no-lock versions being rarer every year. What I buy will be a shooter, so it won't break my heart to get a newer pre-lock version.
 
Moon clips have other issues in real world use that have not been fully addressed above.

They work fine in a tactical match, where they can be carefully inspected prior to the match and carried in speed loader carrier designed to be worn on the belt and hold them safely - and none of those are well suited to concealed carry.

Moon clips also have the potential to get bent if dropped and almost certainly will get bent if stepped on after you have ejected the clip. They can also get bent if just carried in a pocket when the bullets are pushed together.

For pocket carry, you need something like this, with a cap to prevent the rounds from being splayed out to the sides, and a central core to keep them from being pressed together.

PMC.jpg


It works great to keep the moon clip and rounds safe and functional in the pocket. The downside is that now you are back to a two stage process where you first have to push off the protective carrier before you can insert the rounds into the cylinder. In the end, you have zero speed advantage, and in some cases a net loss in speed compared to a well designed speed loader.

The pressure needed to bend one depends on how thick and how springy the steel is, but they will all bend. Moon clips in general work much better with shorter, larger caliber rounds.

Smaller calibers like 9mm and .38 Special / .357 Magnum usually have thinner than .45 ACP, and the shorter .45 ACP round puts much less bending stress on the clip than a .357 Magnum. That puts .38 / .357 Mag moon clips at a double disadvantage.

Inserting the rounds into the clip and removing the fired cases again is a pain, but also a reliability issue. You can do it with your bare hands, with some practice, but getting it done without bending the clip is problematic, especially with thinner 9mm or .38 /.357 moon clips. You can use a pair of needle nose plies to press them in and that has much less risk of bending one, but you are best served with a specialty tool.

Bending is a big concern as a s bent speed loader at best makes it harder to load the cartridges into the cylinder, and this becomes an issue much sooner with the truncated cone or round nosed flat point shaped hollow points or LSWCHP bullets most people use for self defense than it is with the round nosed bullets shooters are more likely to use in tactical matches. Worst case, a bent moon clip will jam the revolver and prevent a reload as a proud standing moon clip won't allow the crane and cylinder to re-enter the frame. I've also found that some moon clips and some revolvers don't get along when the tolerances stack the wrong way and you end up with a new moon clip that won't allow the cylinder to enter the frame.

The saving grace is that moon clips are relative inexpensive so you can load up a couple hundred rounds at home prior to a range to avoid having to reload them at the range, and then keep them safely stored on spindles in box, until you either load them directly, or place them lovingly into your totally impractical practical pistol match belt and carrier.

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But you need to understand that upfront and buy 50 or so moon clips when you get the revolver. The 5 or so that come with the revolver won't satisfy someone who actually likes to shoot revolvers rather than just look at them. A large number of them also covers you when you inevitably bend some of them.

That said, the saving grace about most moon clip capable revolvers is that most of them can be fired without moon clips.

Most 9mm and .45 ACP revolvers for example still have chambers that are cut so that the cartridges head space on the mouth , just like they do in a semi-auto pistol, so they can still be fired without moon clips. That allows those revolvers and their rimless cartridges to be single loaded.

Most revolvers with rimmed cartridges like the .38 Special and .357 Magnum have the cylinder face relieved to accommodate the moon clip. However, the moon clip itself does not encompass the outer portion of the cartridge. That allows the outer portion of the cylinder face and chambers to be left uncut, so that a single round can still headspace on the rim without a moon clip. That then lets you single load rounds, use a speed strip, or use a speed loader, when using a moon clip isn't practical or advisable.

Which is something to consider if you think you might want to use moon clips at the range, and then use a speed loader or speed strips for concealed carry. The downside of this of course for self defense purposes is that you'll have to master two different reload methods, and then default to the correct one under extreme stress if you ever find yourself in a true self defense situation where you also need a reload (which is admittedly very unlikely).

That forced choice of moon clips reflects the reality of many of the "practical' pistol" classes, where the handguns, equipment and techniques being used actually have very little relevance to self defense shooting. That leaves you with the option of being truly practical to take advantage of applying practical techniques under time and pressure, but not being competitive, or being competitive with very little generalization to the real world.

In short, I really thought I'd like moon clips and I really tried to love them. But outside of the very artificial conditions of a tactical pistol match they are the next best thing to totally useless. In my experience, when it comes to real world concealed carry, they are just a liability. Consequently whether moon clips work for an individual shooter or not depends entirely on what the shooter plans to do with the revolver and what that shooter's priorities happen to be. They are currently popular. Whether they will stay that way remains to be seen.
 
A 686-5 would not be a bad choice, particularly for a self defense revolver. There's no lock and the newer firing pin system is a bit more durable and easier to find parts for if you break it.

The L frame overall is the sweet spot with a K frame sized grip frame that can accommodate a wide range of stocks that in turn accommodate a wide range of hand sizes and trigger reaches, as well as a larger frame that tolerates a full time diet of .357 Magnum loads much better than a k frame.

I also like the -5's sights when it comes to a self defense revolver as you can replace the pinned front sight with a tritium night sight, and you can replace the rear sights wit tritium sights with only a modicum of skills and tools. The options for the earlier fixed front sight versions are more limited and less than optimum.

In their stock form, the Model 66-4 on the left and the 686-5 on the right have very similar front sight profiles, however installing night sights on the earlier revolvers requires a front sight insert that stands out away from the front sight, where it snags, and is more prone to damage.

IMG_0026_zpsvdb52tbc.jpg


Night sight options for the -5 are much cleaner.

EA5C2718-50BD-4C1F-89EE-480E5D46466B_zpskr3amf7w.jpg


d49a3fc4-33b9-4e5e-a719-0d6d77e9f07f_zpslc9uaea4.jpg
 
^^^ Thanks BB57. Great info. No moon clips. Done! I'm surely opting for the NO moon clip pre-lock version. The more I read about the -5, the more that I like it. Now to find one in a 4"... Since she's going to be a shooter, I think I'm going to make the priority a -5, if I can't find one, then a -4.

As much as I'd really like an early 80's model classic 6-shot, THAT would just be a safe queen as I'd be leery about taking it to the woods or the range as to preserve the condition of a "collector". I'll shoot the &%$! out of a -4 or -5 plus. Granted, ANY no lock will be a collector, but there are different levels IMHO.
 
1. A pre-lock 686 plus. These are rare, but can be found in great shape for around $1000 +/- if you hunt. -OR-

I didn't realize they'd climbed in price like that. I need to dig mine out of the safe and sell it.
 
IMO there is no more collector valve to a 686 no dash than a later pre lock version as the later versions like the -3 to -5 had improvements that made them better/stronger revolvers.
 

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