With rising anmo cost, is there also a rising case for using reloads as SD ammo?

It's where I wound up, as well. All other things considered, I found Mas's GSR argument in On Deadly Ground compelling. I've got faith in the QC of my carry ammo, and I'm using 9mm, there's a good chunk of the defensive ammo market (plus law enforcement) aimed squarely at my carry gun.

For practice, I've been duplicating my carry load with an inexpensive plated bullet of the same weight (and pretty close to the same profile). I just can't stomach running even "practice"-grade factory in the volume I like to shoot. Unfortunately, plated bullets have gotten a little more expensive, and locally, I just can't seem to find the 124-grain +P Speer GDHPs I was carrying, so next cycle I might have to experiment with the 147-grain version.
 
Well, he was a working gun writer and professional defense witness, and for at least a while had a working relationship with an ammunition company. He was a hobby cop in a town of 2400 people with very little crime.

I have never had ammunition type, hand loaded or otherwise, become an issue in a case. It may have happened somewhere, but it doesn’t deserve the attention it gets.

I have practiced law and tried cases for 41 years, including 21 years on the bench in a general jurisdiction trial court (felony crimes only - no traffic court or small claims). I have also been reading this pap about handloads vs. factory ammo in defensive shootings for about as long as I can remember, and I have never, not once, seen a case where ammo of any type was an issue of any sort. There are lots of things worth worrying about in this life but, IMHO, handloaded ammo in my carry gun isn’t one of ‘em.
 
Even if your criminal case is dismissed, a civil case can still be filed against you. In that one, anything that the prosecuting attorney can do to make you look bad is a plus for him. Add to that that many people are not gun owners, and know nothing about them. I'll load my own comparable practice ammo and carry manufacturers stuff. May be a bit cheaper to reload all of it, but I won't give them another thing to use against me to save the $10-15 a box for 2 boxes that I can carry only while practicing with my reloads.
 
I suspect that jurisdiction has something to do with views on the subject.

Some states are more friendly to criminals than victims it seems, and folks who live in those states might have more concerns than those who live in states that are less criminal friendly.
 
Not sure about the rest of the country, but in NC there are no laws outlawing carrying handloads for self defense. I have not even seen the anti gun groups stomping their feet over the use of handloads, yet. When it becomes illegal I will have to change my habits, until then the worry warts will have to live with my decisions, or they can keep stomping their feet.
 
I would point out that (1) that's pretty anecdotal, and (2) the problems don't really occur when you're looking at a straight-up murder, but rather when you're making a claim of self-defense.

Like I said--there are some reasons not to do it, there are some reasons to do it. Me? I don't. But I can articulate some reasons why you might want to.

Here--which of the following three guys sounds the least serious about the prospect of using lethal force in self-defense?

(1) "Well sir, I knew I'd be counting on my firearm to function in a dire, life-or-death situation. It can't work if the ammunition is defective, and I've seen all sorts of ammunition fail due to manufacturing errors. For instance, primers that don't ignite because they're not fully-seated, or cartridges that don't have any powder, even in very expensive self-defense ammunition. These are problems that can have deadly consequences when you're fighting for your life, and it worried me greatly. Handloading my own defensive ammunition let me verify that each cartridge was properly-made. I used the same bullets--the projectile the gun fires--found in high-quality defensive ammo, and used a powder charge designed to match the velocity found in that ammo. I also used nickel-plated cases for corrosion resistance, and the same Federal primers used in self-defense and match ammunition."

(2) "I used handloaded ammunition because, according to my reading of [insert book title here] by [author], the jacketed hollowpoints used in most defensive ammunition aren't very effective in the relatively small and low-powered cartridge I was using. Jacketed roundnose ammunition, meanwhile, would be similarly ineffective, and likely to overpenetrate, which could be hazardous to bystanders. He also wrote that more effective ammunition, in addition to improving my own chances for survival, could be capable of stopping an attacker with fewer shots, improving their chances of survival as well. This made sense to me, as the whole point of self-defense is to prevent the loss of life. [Author] did extensive testing, and concluded that a soft, swaged lead hollowpoint semiwadcutter was ideal for the velocities this cartridge is capable of. Unfortunately, swaged LSWC-HP's just aren't available commercially, so I elected to load my own."

Side note, now the book this guy read is admissible as evidence. This is a good thing, presuming you're not reading idiot ninja books from guys that think Punisher grips are real cool.

(3) "Well, self-defense ammo is usually $0.50 to $1 a round. I wanted to save some money, so I handloaded my own."

Now--out of the three, who presented the best defense?

Even now, though, I'll be really even-handed. I think there is a case for reloading defensive ammo to save money.

"Well sir, I'm a man of limited means, so to speak. I bought my gun used to save money, and buddy gave me a holster he tried and didn't like. It was still a big expense, but we don't live in the best neighborhood, and I wanted to be able to protect my family. I know $36 for a box of ammo isn't a lot of money to most folks, but I'd have to replace the ammo in my carry gun three times a year--the humid weather gets into the powder, corrodes the case, and unloading the gun for regular cleaning wears out the chambered round. I did the math, and it'd wind up costing $100 a year. That's most of a week's groceries, or a pretty big chunk of Christmas. Deciding to handload defensive ammo for $8 a box...well, it was an easy decision."

Man, bust out the violin music for that guy.

And yes, I realize I just pissed off everyone in the forum by suggesting that handloading defensive ammunition was neither the worst idea in the world, but also not above criticism. Zero likes for me.

I like your argumentation, but your entire argument is based on a faulty premise - that the court battle you are sure to wage is one based on rational and objective analysis of the evidence. It is not. It is, according to many lawyers and prosecutors, a battle between emotional and irrational arguments whose sole purpose is to sway the opinion of 12 jurors. Let your imagination run wild with all the arguments and evidence the opposing side (criminal or civil proceedings) can and will make of your hand made ammunition. Just like I would never carry a gun with custom trigger work, or a wide array of custom features currently available on the market today, carrying custom ammo just opens the door to a whole host of arguments you would otherwise not have to face.
 
What about reliability? Although nearly all of my reloads work just fine, I believe that using reloads for SD still increases the risk of a failure to fire. Frustrating when you're facing a paper target. Fatal when you're facing an assailant. Not a risk I'm willing to take.
 
What about reliability? Although nearly all of my reloads work just fine, I believe that using reloads for SD still increases the risk of a failure to fire. Frustrating when you're facing a paper target. Fatal when you're facing an assailant. Not a risk I'm willing to take.

Only failures to fire I have had is with factory ammo. In fact over the years several times ammo from the factory has had reveresed primers. Any load should be extensively tested before carry whether in the woods or the street.

I like your argumentation, but your entire argument is based on a faulty premise - that the court battle you are sure to wage is one based on rational and objective analysis of the evidence. It is not. It is, according to many lawyers and prosecutors, a battle between emotional and irrational arguments whose sole purpose is to sway the opinion of 12 jurors. Let your imagination run wild with all the arguments and evidence the opposing side (criminal or civil proceedings) can and will make of your hand made ammunition. Just like I would never carry a gun with custom trigger work, or a wide array of custom features currently available on the market today, carrying custom ammo just opens the door to a whole host of arguments you would otherwise not have to face.

Problem is, I just don't care for others opinions on what I carry. It will be my rear on the line so one way or another good or bad decision falls on me. I know though that if I was on a jury I would dismiss any ramblings about ammo. What would get my attention is social media history of some who are clearly obsessed with what ammo to have to use to shoot people. And that is what we are talking about when we discuss SD ammo. Nobody cares a hill of beans what is carried for hunting and target shooting. Just myself my thoughts are always on how can I avoid a shooting rather than what I need to get away with a iffy SD encounter. Posting history has not only been used to sway public opinion in the media it has been used in court whether successful or not.

Recent case in the handicap parking case ammo has not even been mentioned, but the shooters previous behavior most likely played a HUGE factor in his being charged for murder. Keep in mind that IF any of us are in a SD shooting our posting history WILL come back to haunt us.
 
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I like your argumentation, but your entire argument is based on a faulty premise - that the court battle you are sure to wage is one based on rational and objective analysis of the evidence. It is not. It is, according to many lawyers and prosecutors, a battle between emotional and irrational arguments whose sole purpose is to sway the opinion of 12 jurors. Let your imagination run wild with all the arguments and evidence the opposing side (criminal or civil proceedings) can and will make of your hand made ammunition. Just like I would never carry a gun with custom trigger work, or a wide array of custom features currently available on the market today, carrying custom ammo just opens the door to a whole host of arguments you would otherwise not have to face.

I'm really not advocating in favor of reloading your own ammunition.

Frequently, SD/CCW discussions have a tendency to degenerate into extremes. People refer to everything that they don't do as literal suicide. I'm trying real hard to not do that, because it's dumb for me as an enthusiast. Mas is allowed to do it because he's an expert that derives his income from talking about this stuff. Why do you buy a book on self-defense? Because the guy is going to tell you some stuff to do more of, and some stuff not to do. Condemning stuff is part of the job.

If you'd like to give me $17.95, though, I'll happily pick some things to call retarded.

My Poor Broke Dude argument is actually two really subtle things. #1 is that we have a tendency to think that everyone's just got money and access to gear, but the fact is that some people don't. We literally laugh about how Hi-Point is still somehow in business. Well, they're in business because there are some folks that really can't afford anything more, and they're entitled to self-defense as well. Those folks get a little marginalized by the self-defense industry, and the gun rights lobbying crowd, because they don't have any money to give.

#2 is real simple--differentiating between "I'm really broke and can't afford to buy SD ammo" and "I'm a real cheap *******". You're not as broke as that guy, right? Okay, then you're not making a decision based on "economics", you're just being cheap.

Personally, I think Poor Broke Dude would be better off with a box of Winchester white box.
 
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I would depend on my own loads without a qualm if my life were on the line.

But I do purchase ammo for self defense purposes. I'm not paranoid about the legalities, but it beats having to explain.

I have had two lawyers give me essentially the same advice which I will paraphrase.

We know of NOBODY being convicted of a crime based in whole or part on what ammunition was used. HOWEVER, the best factory SD ammo costs $1.50 - $2.00 a round. A typical SD encounter might be three rounds.

By using factory ammo NOBODY can ask about your reloading practices, how you choose components, how many rounds you make, fire. How you have tested any rounds.

Each question that cannot be asked because it is not relevant makes the investigation into a clean SD situation faster, less confrontational and cheaper.

Both also advised using what the local PD uses if appropriate.
 
Common Internet wisdom over the past 20 years has been: “Do not use reloads for self defense because you might get sued by the scumbag or his family and their scumbag attorney looking to extort money from you. Maybe even accuse you of murder.”
The “rational” (for lack of a better word) is that you used ammo that did more damage that resulted in serious injury or death to their upstanding client. As absurd as allof that is, they, supposedly, will convince a jury of the lowest common denominator of this and have your head on a platter.

However, with rising ammo costs, even common good quality ammo like Winchester, Remington and Federal costing as much as a dollar a round (something that used to be said of Buffalo Bore only a few years ago), isn’t there a basic logical reasoning for reloading your own ammo for practice and self-defense?
After all, 1) you want ammo that you can practice with frequently and that is consistant in POA with what you are carrying. 2) you can make ammo as good or better and for only a fraction of what it costs factory made.
All of this is in the interest of not only yourself but your family and those around you to make sure you can shoot accurately and are less likely to miss.

I was looking online and in store for .38 Spl+p LHP Remington, Winchester and Federal. All of them amount to $50+ (taxes, shipping, etc) for a box of $50. Not something anybody can practice with regularly and not something anybody can afford to buy in any great quantity.

Only a year or so ago, you could buy a box for $30. (Maybe less)

But, using Hornandy 158gr LSWCHP bullets and 5.2-5.4 gr of unique and a CCI 500 primer in a reused nickle plated case, you can reload the same round for almost nothing.

Cost of everything always goes UP. They call it inflation. Truth is it is DEFLATION. Deflation of the VALUE of the fiat money we all use. The cost of ammo relative to the dollar has gone up since the creation of "ammo" and dollars.

None of that is to say I have any problem with using reloads for SD, I do it all the time.

Just that "costs" (dollars) should be just about the very LAST thing I'd take in to consideration when loading up a carry gun. If the expense of those 6, 10, 15 bullets is a determining factor I would be of the opinion the person can't really afford to own guns.
 
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Exactly.

Don't give the prosecutor anything to talk about regarding you. The prosecutor will not be saying nice things about you. Give him as little to talk about as possible when the subject matter is you.

Like social media history, belonging to gun forums? If ammo is a big fear then clearly those same people should not be talking about guns in public.

About 40 years ago a Springfield Il officer was indicted by the FBI for striking a man with a radio. The man had a knife, and was assaulting his wife. The FBI seized his gun, knife, and any other weapon collection and displayed them on a table in the court room. The officer was convicted at least until his conviction was overturned. He went from being a respected police officer to delivering news papers.

Think about that. YOUR collection, as well as your social media WILL be used to paint you as violent to a hand picked jury. And you guys are worried about reloads vs factory.

"Butler County Prosecutor Mike Gmoser recently used photos and posts from the Facebook page of a Fairfield Twp. teenager accused of murder to show a jury that the boy liked violence. Gmoser showed Facebook pictures of 18-year-old Lance Tiernan wearing a T-shirt with brass knuckles and a notation on his page that he “likes” the movie “Fight Club.”"Social media posts admissible in court
 
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I reload and I've fired tens of thousands of rounds in practice and competition. If and when I carry, it's with factory ammo that's been proven reliable in my firearms.

When you talk about the money you save loading your carry ammo, factor in the attorney's fees for trying to defend your ammo at $350/hour. And, you may not prevail.

I can add in a case in my own state that Mas worked where the state crime lab used the wrong exemplar ammunition and "proved" the shooting didn't take place at arms length as specified by the accused. The third party records of the ammunition manufacturer indicated that the exemplar loads used different powder than the ammo lot used in the shooting and would not provide proper comparison testing won an appeal and new trial.
 
Not sure about the rest of the country, but in NC there are no laws outlawing carrying handloads for self defense. I have not even seen the anti gun groups stomping their feet over the use of handloads, yet. When it becomes illegal I will have to change my habits, until then the worry warts will have to live with my decisions, or they can keep stomping their feet.

Most non shooters do not even know you can make your own ammo. So a decent prosecutor can make the bogus argument that making your own ammo is an evil intent. There just isnt a compelling reason to carry handloads for sd as a general rule. Cost, please, anyone can afford 100rds of HST, last you years.
 
Most non shooters do not even know you can make your own ammo. So a decent prosecutor can make the bogus argument that making your own ammo is an evil intent. There just isnt a compelling reason to carry handloads for sd as a general rule. Cost, please, anyone can afford 100rds of HST, last you years.

Case law please? Since there is little to none, I will carry any legal load I wish. Please reread my post, you will see a section that pertains to objections to my choice.

Besides I will avoid an altercation, or shooting so much that my old behind will be the only thing seen as I get away from the threat. Unlike others who post constantly about which ammo to use to shoot someone.
 
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There's never any case law. It's an empty objection. People keep using that word, and I don't think they know what it means.

Remember the LEO that got charged for shooting a guy in a hotel, had "blank you" on the inside of the aftermarket dustcover on the AR-15 he used? Much was made of that little dustcover, and his attorneys spent many hours and thousands of dollars making sure that it was concealed from the jury.

None of that was "case law". Yet it was very relevant to the trial.
 
I think a good lawyer could make a convincing argument that reloading your own ammo is no different than buying your own groceries and cooking meals in your own kitchen. Why would anybody cook their own food? There are plenty of restaurants around where you can buy food that has been prepared by a professional, in an environment that has been inspected by the state for safety and cleanliness. Your kitchen at home has not been inspected by a certified inspector for safety and cleanliness, and you are not a professional food preparer, and the excessive amount of hot sauce you put in that last batch of chili shows that you were intentionally trying to cause harm to others.

Scotty
 
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this problem myself. With the price of skinning knives and ammunition so dear, after you shoot 3 or 4 bad guys everyday you have to recognize the cost. The authorities will not reimburse you for ammo expended on criminals. They won't pay for hits let alone the misses. It's got so bad they won't let you dig your pistol ball out of corpse for recycling. Yes, I believe I'm going to have to consider hand loads for all my SD shooting. LMAO
 
I think a good lawyer could make a convincing argument that reloading your own ammo is no different than buying your own groceries and cooking meals in your own kitchen. Why would anybody cook their own food?

A bit of a false equivalency. Plenty of people cook their own food. It's fairly universal. Gun ownership, CCW, and handloading are not.

Asking your lawyer to explain why you loaded your own ammunition is asking him to do one more thing. For one thing, he's going to have to spend time defending your decision, and his time is your money.

For another, you're trying to convince a jury that your actions were necessary. Every additional thing you ask your lawyer to convince the jury of decreases your chance of getting that first one across.
 
I'm really not advocating in favor of reloading your own ammunition.

Frequently, SD/CCW discussions have a tendency to degenerate into extremes. People refer to everything that they don't do as literal suicide. I'm trying real hard to not do that, because it's dumb for me as an enthusiast. Mas is allowed to do it because he's an expert that derives his income from talking about this stuff. Why do you buy a book on self-defense? Because the guy is going to tell you some stuff to do more of, and some stuff not to do. Condemning stuff is part of the job.

If you'd like to give me $17.95, though, I'll happily pick some things to call retarded.

My Poor Broke Dude argument is actually two really subtle things. #1 is that we have a tendency to think that everyone's just got money and access to gear, but the fact is that some people don't. We literally laugh about how Hi-Point is still somehow in business. Well, they're in business because there are some folks that really can't afford anything more, and they're entitled to self-defense as well. Those folks get a little marginalized by the self-defense industry, and the gun rights lobbying crowd, because they don't have any money to give.

#2 is real simple--differentiating between "I'm really broke and can't afford to buy SD ammo" and "I'm a real cheap *******". You're not as broke as that guy, right? Okay, then you're not making a decision based on "economics", you're just being cheap.

Personally, I think Poor Broke Dude would be better off with a box of Winchester white box.
Exactly. If you can afford any gun, you can afford a box of cheap jhp like wwb. Besides reloading requires some gear to do it right so more $$$$. The math doesnt work out for the 100rds a year folks.
 
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