With rising anmo cost, is there also a rising case for using reloads as SD ammo?

[Univibe]

I would depend on my own loads without a qualm if my life were on the line.

But I do purchase ammo for self defense purposes. I'm not paranoid about the legalities, but it beats having to explain.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

It must remembered that Massad Ayoob was a working cop. Cops are subjected to a high level of scrutiny in any shooting situation and claims of unnecessary force are quite common. Adding hand-loaded ammunition to a police shooting is like handing the deed for your house to a lawyer.

Joe Homeowner acting in defense of his family is not expected to have a department-issued firearm or approved ammunition. The level of scrutiny and range of criticism will never be at the same level as expected in a police shooting situation.

If you are confident in your homemade ammunition I see no reason not to use it for self-defense purposes. If the subject is raised in court I would expect most jurors to understand the difference between $30 per box for store-bought ammo and $6.50 per box for roll-your-own.

 

[dannyabear]

If it is justified, what is the difference between store bought, reloaded, baseball bat or whatever?

 

[sigp220.45]

It must remembered that Massad Ayoob was a working cop. Cops are subjected to a high level of scrutiny in any shooting situation and claims of unnecessary force are quite common. Adding hand-loaded ammunition to a police shooting is like handing the deed for your house to a lawyer.

Well, he was a working gun writer and professional defense witness, and for at least a while had a working relationship with an ammunition company. He was a hobby cop in a town of 2400 people with very little crime.

I have never had ammunition type, hand loaded or otherwise, become an issue in a case. It may have happened somewhere, but it doesn’t deserve the attention it gets.

 

[dr. mordo]

I think I agree with the OPs initial post - Buffalo Bore has proven there is a market for $1/round, and it seems like big manufacturers are following suit. It's getting harder to find 50 rd boxes of self defense ammo, and Federal for one is moving to the Buffalo Bore scheme of selling 20 round boxes for over $1 a round. I don't know if Hornady ever sold 50 rd boxes of self defense ammo, but all my LGS has is 20 round boxes at a premium price.

I would carry my reloads without hesitation, but lately my Hornady Lock and Load does not like to seat primers. If I can get it working right, I'll likely start carrying my own reloads in some calibers, though I really have no complaint with the Underwoods I've been carrying for years.

 

[Wise_A]

"Show me the case law! Show me the case law!"

You're not going to find it. This, along with such idiocy as having a "Punisher" or "Smile, Wait For Flash" striker plate on your G-Lock, is hidden in attorney arguments and not generally publicized. But it's entirely relevant to the jury's perception of you.

---

Now--I can think of a couple reasons not to use handloaded ammunition for self defense, reasons I've heard from people who aren't Mas.

But hey, it's your gun. Don't ask me to carry it, and I couldn't care less about what you load it with.

I would, however, suggest that cost isn't a very good reason supporting handloaded SD ammunition. Unless you're getting "gimmick" ammo, it's just not that expensive to rotate ammo through a carry gun. As a side note, folks that live in especially humid or dusty environments can feel free to disagree with me on that point.

 

[usmc2427765]

Never carried reloads on duty in my primary weapon. As LEO firearms instructor, I saw way too many reloads not go boom!! I did see one factory round not go boom because they failed to put powder in the cartridge case.

 

[Walkingwolf]

It must remembered that Massad Ayoob was a working cop. Cops are subjected to a high level of scrutiny in any shooting situation and claims of unnecessary force are quite common. Adding hand-loaded ammunition to a police shooting is like handing the deed for your house to a lawyer.

Joe Homeowner acting in defense of his family is not expected to have a department-issued firearm or approved ammunition. The level of scrutiny and range of criticism will never be at the same level as expected in a police shooting situation.

If you are confident in your homemade ammunition I see no reason not to use it for self-defense purposes. If the subject is raised in court I would expect most jurors to understand the difference between $30 per box for store-bought ammo and $6.50 per box for roll-your-own.

MA was a honorary/reserve cop in a small village, IIRC the size of the force was around 7 officers.

 

[Twoboxer]

Ammo costs are not rising, so there's no rationale for the question.

As for the rest, my own personal take is this:

Attorneys can and will try to twist everything and anything to make you look bad. Use handloads or +P+ factory makes no difference. Either can be made to look bad if your response/defense doesn't convince the jury. Bottom line is (besides the facts of the case) your responses/defense means more than the ammo you use.

Since it is possible to make a small batch of perfectly composed ammo, there's no worry about it going bang . . . if the primer goes off . . . which could fail even after your hand inspection of it . . . just like it theoretically could in factory ammo.

My own SD ammo matches the brand my local police use. Saved me research.

 

[rwsmith]

Not quite the same, but......

IF this is not internet BS, please post a link to actual case where this has happened..

Mr. Harold Fish was hiking on a trail in AZ when he was attacked and defended himself (killed the attacker) with a 10mm pistol that was judged to be 'overkill'. He ended up in jail for a long term and was only released two years later when they managed to change the law.

Here is a link. Note the absurd charges such as the attackers violent past being inadmissible, but Mr. Fish's history of gun ownership was used against him. He was attacked by the man's three dogs (two of which were scheduled to be destroyed), which Fish first yelled at the guy to control his dogs, then scared them away with warning shots. Then the guy said he was going to kill him and charged. The scene evidence that the man was charging at Fish and about anything else that could be used in his defense was disallowed. Oh, and a few years later they removed the 'convicted felon' label.

The Terrifying and True Harold Fish Story | Buckeye Firearms Association

 

[rwsmith]

Ah, 'Value Added' products....

I think I agree with the OPs initial post - Buffalo Bore has proven there is a market for $1/round, and it seems like big manufacturers are following suit. It's getting harder to find 50 rd boxes of self defense ammo, and Federal for one is moving to the Buffalo Bore scheme of selling 20 round boxes for over $1 a round. I don't know if Hornady ever sold 50 rd boxes of self defense ammo, but all my LGS has is 20 round boxes at a premium price.

I would carry my reloads without hesitation, but lately my Hornady Lock and Load does not like to seat primers. If I can get it working right, I'll likely start carrying my own reloads in some calibers, though I really have no complaint with the Underwoods I've been carrying for years.

In my corporate days a term, 'Value Added Products' was something being bandied about. It involved very little change to the product as justification to charge a higher price for it. Pretty much turning a commodity into a specialty.

I feel perfectly safe using everyday defense ammo such as Golden Sabers or HSTs. EGPRs or "Extra Powered Gut Rippers" are not required.

 

[one eye joe]

Common Internet wisdom over the past 20 years has been: “Do not use reloads for self defense because you might get sued by the scumbag or his family and their scumbag attorney looking to extort money from you. Maybe even accuse you of murder.”
The “rational” (for lack of a better word) is that you used ammo that did more damage that resulted in serious injury or death to their upstanding client. As absurd as allof that is, they, supposedly, will convince a jury of the lowest common denominator of this and have your head on a platter.

However, with rising ammo costs, even common good quality ammo like Winchester, Remington and Federal costing as much as a dollar a round (something that used to be said of Buffalo Bore only a few years ago), isn’t there a basic logical reasoning for reloading your own ammo for practice and self-defense?
After all, 1) you want ammo that you can practice with frequently and that is consistant in POA with what you are carrying. 2) you can make ammo as good or better and for only a fraction of what it costs factory made.
All of this is in the interest of not only yourself but your family and those around you to make sure you can shoot accurately and are less likely to miss.

I was looking online and in store for .38 Spl+p LHP Remington, Winchester and Federal. All of them amount to $50+ (taxes, shipping, etc) for a box of $50. Not something anybody can practice with regularly and not something anybody can afford to buy in any great quantity.

Only a year or so ago, you could buy a box for $30. (Maybe less)

But, using Hornandy 158gr LSWCHP bullets and 5.2-5.4 gr of unique and a CCI 500 primer in a reused nickle plated case, you can reload the same round for almost nothing.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR FEAR OF HAVING YOUR RELOADS ATTACKED IN A JURY TRIAL. WHETHER REAL OR NOT, THAT THREAT CAN BE ELIMINATED BY THE PURCHASE OF ONE BOX OF HIGH END AMMO---SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED FOR SELF DEFESE USE. LOAD YOUR WEAPON WITH THIS AMMO, WHENEVER YOU CARRY IT......

SINCE SD INCIDENTS ARE USUALLY CONDUCTED AT A RANGE OF 7 YARDS OR SO---IT SHOULD BE EASY TO REPLICATE THE PERFORMANCE OF YOUR CARRY AMMO, WITH A RELOAD THAT WILL ALSO SHOOT POI TO POA AT THAT SHORT DISTANCE.....

ONCE YOU DEVELOP SUCH A LOAD, YOU CAN PRACTICE WITH IT ECONOMICALLY, TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT......

 

[HorizontalMike]

We Have A Winner!

I UNDERSTAND YOUR FEAR OF HAVING YOUR RELOADS ATTACKED IN A JURY TRIAL. WHETHER REAL OR NOT, THAT THREAT CAN BE ELIMINATED BY THE PURCHASE OF ONE BOX OF HIGH END AMMO---SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED FOR SELF DEFESE USE. LOAD YOUR WEAPON WITH THIS AMMO, WHENEVER YOU CARRY IT......

SINCE SD INCIDENTS ARE USUALLY CONDUCTED AT A RANGE OF 7 YARDS OR SO---IT SHOULD BE EASY TO REPLICATE THE PERFORMANCE OF YOUR CARRY AMMO, WITH A RELOAD THAT WILL ALSO SHOOT POI TO POA AT THAT SHORT DISTANCE.....

ONCE YOU DEVELOP SUCH A LOAD, YOU CAN PRACTICE WITH IT ECONOMICALLY, TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT......

Precisely!

IMO, and in my case, I don't choose/do "lead" bullets for SD. I choose to use jacketed bullets, in order to make cleanup easier for me. I have shot numerous LRN when/before I seriously picked up reloading, not so much afterwards.

I prefer Hornady XTP bullets for my heavier and higher FPS .38 and .357 rounds, though have been experimenting with lighter grain GoldDots and GoldenSabers in my short-barreled revolvers at .38 and +P loads.

FWIW, I am really a big fan of Fiocchi JHP ammo, in 9mm, .38, and .357. At roughly $0.34/rd (caliber dependent) it is hard to beat, even when reloading your own. Just use the Fiocchi brass with a 147xtp, as it reloads great, AND you end up with the equivalent of Fiocchi's Premium 147gxtp Extrema ammunition Fiocchi Extrema Ammo 9mm Luger 147 Grain Hornady XTP - MPN: 9XTPB25 at a big saving$...!

 

[stansdds]

I UNDERSTAND YOUR FEAR OF HAVING YOUR RELOADS ATTACKED IN A JURY TRIAL. WHETHER REAL OR NOT, THAT THREAT CAN BE ELIMINATED BY THE PURCHASE OF ONE BOX OF HIGH END AMMO---SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED FOR SELF DEFESE USE. LOAD YOUR WEAPON WITH THIS AMMO, WHENEVER YOU CARRY IT......

SINCE SD INCIDENTS ARE USUALLY CONDUCTED AT A RANGE OF 7 YARDS OR SO---IT SHOULD BE EASY TO REPLICATE THE PERFORMANCE OF YOUR CARRY AMMO, WITH A RELOAD THAT WILL ALSO SHOOT POI TO POA AT THAT SHORT DISTANCE.....

ONCE YOU DEVELOP SUCH A LOAD, YOU CAN PRACTICE WITH IT ECONOMICALLY, TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT......

And that is some sound advice!

Most factory SD ammo features nickel plated cases. Nice, but more expensive and I don't care for them when it comes to reloading. I use plain brass for my reloads and that further differentiates my reloads that duplicate factory ammo from the factory ammo.

 

[max503]

I have always been able to make better ammo for my guns than I can buy, so yes, I see a very real justification for using reloads for SD. Or can you tell me who sells 175 grain soft lead SWC's that shoot to POA in my Taurus 605?

 

[Doug.38PR]

Ammo costs are not rising, so there's no rationale for the question.

.

Sir, I have NEVER seen $44-49.99 plus tax on a box of Winchester Super X or Federal Premium or Remington yellow and green box anything let alone the old LHP ammo. Yet everywhere you go, that’s pretty much what you will pay, maybe more, when all is said and done.

 

[one eye joe]

I use Hornady Critical Defense ammo in my carry pieces because it is an excellent ammo, and if I ever have to testify, I will testify that my personal defense is critical, so I use high quality, reliable Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

My take on reloads is that you are potentially giving the prosecutor one more thing to talk about. A person does not want the prosecutor talking about him, as the prosecutor will only say things that may send you to prison. Do not give the prosecutor anything to talk about, as it is only against your interests.

As for skull and crossbones on the stocks, "Watch here; wait for the flash" engraved on the muzzle, t-shirts that read: "Kill them all; Sort it out in hell," these things tend to indicate an intention to kill, not an intention to save an innocent life. That is a step toward a murder/manslaughter conviction, as intention to kill or do damage is an element of murder, while intention to save a life is an element of justified self defense.

I cannot cite any cases, but would love to read the cases if anybody can cite cases where these issues arose.

PEOPLE SHOULD ALSO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE IMAGE THEY PROJECT ON SOCIAL MEDIA. IT PROVIDES A RICH SOURCE OF INFORMATION, THAT IS READILY ACCESSIBLE, AND COULD BE USED AGAINST YOU.....

 

[BC38]

Mr. Harold Fish was hiking on a trail in AZ when he was attacked and defended himself (killed the attacker) with a 10mm pistol that was judged to be 'overkill'. He ended up in jail for a long term and was only released two years later when they managed to change the law.

Here is a link. Note the absurd charges such as the attackers violent past being inadmissible, but Mr. Fish's history of gun ownership was used against him. He was attacked by the man's three dogs (two of which were scheduled to be destroyed), which Fish first yelled at the guy to control his dogs, then scared them away with warning shots. Then the guy said he was going to kill him and charged. The scene evidence that the man was charging at Fish and about anything else that could be used in his defense was disallowed. Oh, and a few years later they removed the 'convicted felon' label.

The Terrifying and True Harold Fish Story | Buckeye Firearms Association

I read the info at this link and looked up a few others. The only thing I saw about Mr Fish's ammo was that he used hollow points. Nothing about them being handloads. Did I miss something - or are you arguing AGAINST using commercial hollow points in favor of handloads? I'm confused (something that happens a lot any more )

 

[keithherrington]

I'm confused by the responses. Why is this either/or?

The solution, which I've used for a long, long time is quite simple...if you are a good reloader. After extensive testing in my L-Comp I found that my favorite carry ammo is Remington Golden Saber 125 grain JHP. It seems to be just the right combination of power, low muzzle flash, modest recoil and superb accuracy, at least in my gun. However, like the OP I could not afford a steady diet of it for both carry and practice. What to do? What to do?

Well, I bought a couple thousand 125 grain Hornady XTP bullets, 500 Starline cases, a couple of cases of primers and 4 lbs of Vit N110 powder. I then crafted a load with the same point of impact at 50 yards, the distance my carry gun is sighted in for. The practice load is just as accurate as the Remington load, and in a pinch can be an effective stand in. However, just to be safe I kept my eyes pealed for a good deal on the Remington ammo. When I found it on sale, I bought two cases of it, just in case ammo prices do begin to spiral out of control.

Like many, I will not carry handloads for self defense, just like I won't carry a custom gun with a custom trigger and other custom features. My carry guns are either the L-Comp with all the work done by S&W or a 9mm M&P, again with all work done by S&W. I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean that they aren't out to get me.
Keith

 

[Mikeinkaty]

So, there would be more liability issues using my hardened RNFP wheel weight bullet than a Remington soft lead hollow point?

That makes no sense at all. The latter is designed to do massive body damage while the former is designed to minimize body damage.