What if they don't follow your commands?

[Doug M.]

The Lucifer incarnate comment reminded me of a conversation I had with a cop friend many years ago. I was still driving OTR, and was someplace where the selection of radio stations was poor and I ended up listening to a religious broadcast (not my cup of tea, and not consistent with maintaining alertness) for a few miles until I got to my planned stop for the night. The next day, talking to Joe, I described what I heard, and we agreed that the real evil of the world is not the way the preacher was describing it, but in the behavior of awful people.

The depths of behavior are really hard to explain to those who are not mandated to address it. Cops, prosecutors, even defense attorneys, CPS workers, ER nurses and doctors and other have seen stuff that many decent people cannot begin to accept as real. My office was recently part of a sex sting for pedophiles, working with a state task force. In our small community, there were many arrests for attempts to commit truly vile offenses. Most were of people willing to travel over 100 miles by inconvenient means to prey on small children (one took two long bus trips with the goal of raping a 3 year old). Roughly 4% of our felony filings for the year were the result of a 3 day operation. I've prosecuted cases of that nature that actually happened - young kids (not always girls) are supposed to be corrupted by their classmates/peers, not someone in their 40s. I've seen young kids tortured, with injuries that will never heal, by parents. I've seen cases in which jurors lied to get on the panel because they don't believe anyone will do something so vile, and we have to try the case again as the result of that hung jury. You don't want to know how much I really dislike the majority of the human race after 30+ years of this stuff. I tell our reserve cadets when teaching that they don't have the luxury of being biased, because people of every flavor of pigment, plumbing and preference will do utterly awful things.

 

[Trooper224]

Hypothetical response that should be in no way construed as advice or recommendation:

In your proposed scenario there are two options.

First: you observe a robbery in progress but the immediate loss of life does not seem imminent. Solution: mind your own business and don't be a hero.

Second: you feel lives are in imminent danger and the use of deadly force is warranted. Solution: you draw your weapon and use it.

Neither one of these options requires the issuance of a verbal command. In scenario two this can actually be counterproductive. Far too many citizens who decide to strap on a gun do so, then develop the ridiculous "sheepdog" mindset about being societies protector. You are not.

 

[keith44spl]

Since I'm partly responsible for de-railing Rastoff's Thread here...

About a decade ago, someone made a few poster on the forum here, jest for fun with yours truly as the poster boy.

So, please jest keep them cards and letters

It's all tongue in cheek.

.

 

[eb07]

So if you were in this store, the robber has the money and looks to be departing, you would keep your gun in its holster should you decide there is only money at stake?

What if he changes his mind? Are you going to quick draw then?

I get your major point, but I don't see why you wouldn't have your pistol discretely handy in case things change.

Again, Egress out of the line of fire aka danger and or store or defend yourself. I wold much rather move to cover in the back of the store stockroom, or out a back entrance, or even a front entrance than stand there with my firearm handy. I was pretty clear on that I thought.

I have already shot someone in self defense. They died. I understand the emotional stress, and the legal aspect and the losing of a firearm for a time, the interviews, statements and other hassle involved. Sheepdogs keep on being sheepdogs I guess. I am egressing unless I can't. Then I am moving, covering, and shooting. No time for conversation.

It has been going on 26 years now since it happened. It still consumes my thoughts at times. Why anyone would want to do that if it wasn't 100% necessary is beyond my rational line of thinking.

 

[ColbyBruce]

This photo was taken when you were a elementary school cross-walk guard, right?

 

[WuzzFuzz]

What would you do? What would you do? What would you do?

All of this... What if talk....For those that say they would just do nothing and walk...OK...What if it is/was your wife or kid behind the counter.what do you want me to do..Turn around and walk?

If it was my wife(if she were still alive) or kid working behind the counter...I guess I could not count on a good many of you to help.

No, having my LEOSA card does not give me the right or authorization to pretend I'm back on the PD...However should I ever run across a situation of a person holding a gun on a clerk, I can be damn sure it's not going to be some police officer holding up the joint..

Yes I'm a old codger now, but I can still think on my feet..

How I reacted after the incident??? I'll be sure to come back here and tell you all how it went down.

Let me say this...Be it man, woman or child, old or young, I have no qualms about shooting...Any of the three are sure as Hell capable of doing me or another great harm or death.

From reading some of the What would you do?, I recon there must be a lot of religious folks here..."AM I MY BROTHERS KEEPER"?

What ever...To each his own...If you make the bed, then I guess whether it's comfortable or not, you're the one who is going to lay in it.


WuzzFuzz

Any of you remember the incident from years back, the woman who was being raped near or under some apartment windows, and no one did anything to help her even though she was screaming for help.

Rape Victim's Screams Draw 40, but No One Acts; Passing Policemen Come to Aid of Girl in Door Facing a Busy Bronx Street - The New York Times

 

[ColbyBruce]

Speaking of religion, a friend of mine who is a LEO with a few shootings behind him told me his religious faith has helped him following the incidents as much as before and during. He said he has never in all his years of training, duplicated the speed and accuracy and total awareness of the surroundings as he exhibited in three of his shootings.

I believe the late Jim Cirillo also wrote that officers with families and deep religious convictions made the best stake-out officers.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Speaking of religion, . . .

Which we don’t here . . .

 

[Fastbolt]

I’m a retired cop and would not intervene in a case like this unless the victim was about to be shot. Be a good witness and keep out of it. Remember, you could miss and hit an innocent person, get yourself killed, and even if you drop the suspect you’ll probably be sued. In the final analysis it’s only someone else’s money.

This is an observation and opinion that needs to be repeated for a lot of folks.

I don't carry a retirement weapon to protect property. Only life. Meaning my own life, the lives of my family, that of friends, and then possibly that of any innocent 3rd persons I may observe are reasonably in imminent threat of unlawfully being seriously injured or killed by criminal action ... but this last bit is an area of law that really, really, really needs to be learned, carefully understood and considered by a lot of ordinary folks. Situations simply may NOT be what you may think they are, even at 2nd and 3rd glance.


Also, I'm no longer a peace officer, so I no longer have any authority to act beyond that of the capacity of a regular citizen.

I didn't work hard for so many years to enjoy a pension and the fruits of all those years of work just to do something that exposes me to losing it all by creating any increased exposure to needless liability, either.

Some folks, regardless of how well-intentioned they consider themselves to be in normal circumstances, might be surprised by how what they may presume to be "reasonable actions" might later be shown to be quite otherwise, meaning after a lengthy investigation and a very careful examination and explanation of the prevailing laws are explained to a jury of their peers.

 

[keith44spl]

Speaking of religion, a friend of mine who is a LEO with a few shootings behind him told me his religious faith has helped him following the incidents as much as before and during. He said he has never in all his years of training, duplicated the speed and accuracy and total awareness of the surroundings as he exhibited in three of his shootings.

I believe the late Jim Cirillo also wrote that officers with families and deep religious convictions made the best stake-out officers.

That's so true, He has spared me in many a tight spot.

Been shot, shot at and cut with a knife. Totaled 3 vehicles,
one was rammed in my driver's door by the suspects in an attempt to kill me.

Been ambushed once and my car shot up, been in two 'mexican' stand-offs,
dealt with three or four barricaded armed suspects and I don't know how many
meth labs and felony warrants served.

I've leaned on the Master myself, putting on His Armor

He leadeth me beside the still waters....


.

 

[LVSteve]

The first mistake in the scenario is to engage the armed perp verbally. The way I see it is that there are two solutions. First is to make note of the perp's appearance for witness purposes. The second, if a weapon is evident, is to kill them on the spot. Without body armor, cover, and backup and a whole slew of innocents in the vicinity, attempting to talk down an armed perp is simply too risky.

Don't by into my thoughts? Read what happened to the good guy with a gun who challenged this perp in Vegas a few years back. This event left me with no doubt as to what should be done if you have the nerve and equipment.

2014 Las Vegas shootings - Wikipedia

 

[Rastoff]

This thread started off the rails almost from post #2. I figured it might, but I was hoping we could keep the discussion about the title subject; I guess we couldn't.

In your proposed scenario there are two options.

First: you observe a robbery in progress but the immediate loss of life does not seem imminent. Solution: mind your own business and don't be a hero.

Second: you feel lives are in imminent danger and the use of deadly force is warranted. Solution: you draw your weapon and use it.

Neither one of these options requires the issuance of a verbal command.

I completely agree with these two statements. Alas, there are many people in the world who carry, but think that they can use their gun as a deterrent and will use it as I described in my hypothetical OP. The point was to show just how futile it is to present your gun when you have no intention to shoot.

I'm a firm believer in the philosophy that if the gun comes out, someone needed to be shot because someone's life was in danger. But we see it a lot where a guy/girl pulls out there gun and starts giving orders. Then, predictably, the bad guy doesn't follow their commands. In essence he's calling their bluff.

In the first of the two scenarios referenced, one guy pulled out his gun and tried to detain a man that just killed his girlfriend with a knife. The knife wielding man didn't follow the commands of the gun holder. In the second scenario two guys had just robbed a store and 6 people pulled their guns and tried to apprehend the thieves. The two thieves didn't follow the commands either and one person hot hit by the car and the "good citizens" started shooting at the get away car which endangered other citizens.

Most in this thread have hit on the two major points; don't get involved unless you have to and if you have to, be ready to go all the way, i.e. shoot the bad guy.

 

[Roller Delayed]

Again, Egress out of the line of fire aka danger and or store or defend yourself. I wold much rather move to cover in the back of the store stockroom, or out a back entrance, or even a front entrance than stand there with my firearm handy. I was pretty clear on that I thought.

Yeah, I just don't see how that works with a typical convenience store/gas station. The counter (where the robbery is happening) is at the only door, and the other doors, including the bathrooms, are locked. Because the stores are set up to be run by one person, there is no place to go and the shelves are all low - like 4 feet tall.

So if you are toward the back by the cold case when the perp comes in, you're saying the choices are to squeeze past the robber - possibly competing with him for access to the door; or you shoot him.

If it were me, I would quietly draw my gun while hunkering down behind the shelves. I'm not going toward the door/register/criminal as that might be perceived as a threat. I just can't see standing there with empty hands when I could have my gun handy but out of view.

 

[fredj338]

Back in the old days......When Rangers were first require to turn in activity reports.

There was a line on the pre-printed forms that addressed

Dispositiona of Prisoner....One ol Ranger said of one , "Meaner than hell, had to kill him."

.

Though 2019 is not 1819. Frontier justice o ly lives in so e peoples minds. We all have to live with thedecisions we make today.

 

[fredj338]

So if you were in this store, the robber has the money and looks to be departing, you would keep your gun in its holster should you decide there is only money at stake?

What if he changes his mind? Are you going to quick draw then?

I get your major point, but I don't see why you wouldn't have your pistol discretely handy in case things change.

Any skilled pistol shooter can go from concealed, zero to 1st shot in about 1.5 sec. Hand on gun, shortens this to under 1sec, so yes, my gun stays holstered unless I am in imminent threat of death or severe I jury. A dude running out of a business with money posses neither.
So unless you are 110% willing to kill that robber over money, leave it holstered. That may also save your life if LEO roll up on you & your gun is out. Many of todays men/women in blue are shooting 1st & sorting it out later.

 

[Roller Delayed]

If it was my wife(if she were still alive) or kid working behind the counter...I guess I could not count on a good many of you to help.

Intervening in an armed, but otherwise non-violent, robbery is not necessarily helping your kid behind the counter.

I don't know if you are referring to people who wouldn't intervene in any circumstance (even when death is imminent), or the people who would not make turn a simple robbery into a shootout.

 

[keith44spl]

Though 2019 is not 1819. Frontier justice o ly lives in so e peoples minds. We all have to live with thedecisions we make today.

Gees Fred..........Really???

.

 

[Roller Delayed]

Any skilled pistol shooter can go from concealed, zero to 1st shot in about 1.5 sec. Hand on gun, shortens this to under 1sec, so yes, my gun stays holstered unless I am in imminent threat of death or severe I jury. A dude running out of a business with money posses neither.
So unless you are 110% willing to kill that robber over money, leave it holstered. That may also save your life if LEO roll up on you & your gun is out. Many of todays men/women in blue are shooting 1st & sorting it out later.

I don't think those numbers are accurate. With a pistol at low ready I think it would be considerably faster than 1 second - and my grip is 100%, which is not guaranteed on the draw.

If the cops show up, put the gun down on the shelf that is right in front of you.

 

[fredj338]

What would you do? What would you do? What would you do?

All of this... What if talk....For those that say they would just do nothing and walk...OK...What if it is/was your wife or kid behind the counter.what do you want me to do..Turn around and walk?

If it was my wife(if she were still alive) or kid working behind the counter...I guess I could not count on a good many of you to help.

No, having my LEOSA card does not give me the right or authorization to pretend I'm back on the PD...However should I ever run across a situation of a person holding a gun on a clerk, I can be damn sure it's not going to be some police officer holding up the joint..

Yes I'm a old codger now, but I can still think on my feet..

How I reacted after the incident??? I'll be sure to come back here and tell you all how it went down.

Let me say this...Be it man, woman or child, old or young, I have no qualms about shooting...Any of the three are sure as Hell capable of doing me or another great harm or death.

From reading some of the What would you do?, I recon there must be a lot of religious folks here..."AM I MY BROTHERS KEEPER"?

What ever...To each his own...If you make the bed, then I guess whether it's comfortable or not, you're the one who is going to lay in it.


WuzzFuzz

Any of you remember the incident from years back, the woman who was being raped near or under some apartment windows, and no one did anything to help her even though she was screaming for help.

Rape Victim's Screams Draw 40, but No One Acts; Passing Policemen Come to Aid of Girl in Door Facing a Busy Bronx Street - The New York Times

What I dont want is some dummy shooting my loved one while playing barney fiphe. The avg cop is barely capabale under stress with their pistol. The avg ccw, uh no. Since we rarely know for sure the bad guy is going to shoot, then we are rolling the dice. Of course should they start shooting, diff game with diff rules.
Btw, responding to a cry for help is a bit diff than interjecting yourself into something like a robbery. One may start a fight that doesnt need to happen, innocents at risk. The other may be a victim at risk! But still, caution should be used, not all cries for help are actually that.

 

[fredj338]

Gees Fred..........Really???

.

Yeah really