Loaded 1911 Chamber?

[Exchipy]

Loaded Chamber? COCKED-AND-LOCKED ONLY!

If a 1911 pistol is to be carried with a loaded chamber, LET'S BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS:

Condition One (loaded chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety engaged = "Cocked-and-Locked") is the ONLY way authorized by the US Army Training Manual to carry a 1911 pistol with a LOADED CHAMBER, to be ready for immediate combat. You'll also see this carry method recommended in owners manuals provided by 1911 pistol manufacturers.

Condition Three (loaded magazine, empty chamber, hammer fully forward) is certainly the safest carry method, and is the standard way authorized by the US Army Training Manual to carry a 1911 pistol, when immediate combat is not anticipated. But, it takes more to ready the pistol for firing

HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.

An UNSAFE variation of Condition Two involves using the hammer's half-cock notch (sometimes misleadingly called a "safety notch") instead of lowering the hammer fully forward. Again, the thumb safety and grip safety are rendered useless. The DANGER comes from what is known as a FALSE HALF-COCK, which is created when both the hammer and trigger are clumsily manipulated simultaneously while attempting to lower the hammer into the half-cock notch, such that the tip of the half-cock notch gets precariously balanced on the tip of the sear. Then, a slight jarring of the pistol can cause the hammer to fall the rest of the way and fire the cartridge. This is not theoretical; it has happened.

Please feel free to repost this message wherever you can. It must be repeated again and again, until it reaches every 1911 pistol user.

 

[singlesix]

Loaded 1911 chamber

Three tours in RVN...locked and cocked. Now 76 years old and can't get comfortable enough to carry that way. I wish I could so instead I carry a Springfield XDS 45 chamber loaded ready to go.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

AFAIK (not very far), that is a correct and useful post for 1911 users. Probably doesn't apply to Series 80 lovers like me, BUT THE WORLD IS MOSTLY POPULATED BY 1911s, NOT SERIES 80s.

Jeff Cooper kind of popularized what he called Condition 1. This is pretty safe under all conditions. Israelis, in the forties and later, advocated what Cooper later called Condtion Three. This was certainly safe for carry, but wasn't so safe if one actually needed a pistol for self defense, which may have actually been the reason for carrying it in the first place. C'est la vie.

The OP points out that what might seem a safe compromise really IS NOT, at least with a 1911 as opposed to a Series 80. Any of us who were contemplating that error owe him thanks for pointing it out.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Loaded Chamber? COCKED-AND-LOCKED ONLY!


HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.

In your post you use the word safety twice.

Reading threads on SD mindset, most believe the need for your weapon in a split second. And this may be true.

And this is why carrying a 1911 C&L is your best bet..

"NO ONE" should thumb cock a single action semi auto in a high stress situation. More than likely a fail at some point.

If you carry a 1911(like I do) 1 in the pipe and use the "SAFETIES"

 

[Barrie]

I also think this is good knowledge to spread as if it only saves one life then it will be worth all of us passing it around. Accidents do happen and usually when we least expect them to.

 

[Doug M.]

Anyone who is not serious enough about personal defense with a firearm and preparation for such to not be aware of this information should not be carrying a 1911. This is very basic, threshold minimum level knowledge (and training), not arcana.

 

[sigp220.45]

Carry it the way John M intended - chamber loaded, hammer cocked, no thumb safety, rely on the grip safety and trigger discipline.

 

[Krogen]

Carry it the way John M intended - chamber loaded, hammer cocked, no thumb safety, rely on the grip safety and trigger discipline.

Interesting! It's hard to fault JMB's initial thinking. However, I have to wonder what led him to incorporate a thumb safety in later revisions.

 

[Bakebfr480]

Cocked and locked for me!

 

[sigp220.45]

Interesting! It's hard to fault JMB's initial thinking. However, I have to wonder what led him to incorporate a thumb safety in later revisions.

I think the Army specified it.

 

[tipoc]

The 1911 was designed to be "carried" in three different modes. These were based on the Army's collaboration with Colt and JMB. Colt was trying to sell it's first military contract for a semi-auto and they worked over the years for a design that would fit the Army's needs. These needs were practical ones based on field trials and feed back from the troops involved in those.

The thumb safety came about because a cavalry soldier mounted on horseback needed a safe way to holster his pistol. They asked Colt and Browning: If I draw my pistol cock and fire (remember the guns had a wide spur hammer meant to be cocked, like a single action revolver). The guns were carried in a holster in what we call today condition two if hewaded into trouble. The troopers asked: If I shoot two rounds and then need to re-holster how do I make the gun safe while I'm trying to control the horse with one hand and have the gun in the other?

Browning came up with a way to de-cock the gun one handed. The army gave it a try. It worked but was clumsy, particularly if trying to get a bucking horse under control while being shot at.

So the army said, we need something else. So JMB came up with the thumb safety. It allowed a gun to be instantly made safe and could be holstered easily and safely while running, on horseback, etc. It was also instantly ready to fire again when drawn by just swiping down on the safety. The initial safeties were quite small.

Folks can find the army manuals online and follow them over the decades.

The gun was not designed to be carried Condition One. It was designed to be carried Condition One, Two and Three and the military used all three when needed.

The real change in that began after the war with the rise of modern combat pistol training pioneered by Jeff Cooper and others.

tipoc

 

[Texas10MM]

Three tours in RVN...locked and cocked. Now 76 years old and can't get comfortable enough to carry that way. I wish I could so instead I carry a Springfield XDS 45 chamber loaded ready to go.

The 1911 has two safeties that have to be taken off before it can fire. The XDS fires when you pull the trigger. The 1911 is the safer pistol.

AFAIK (not very far), that is a correct and useful post for 1911 users. Probably doesn't apply to Series 80 lovers like me, BUT THE WORLD IS MOSTLY POPULATED BY 1911s, NOT SERIES 80s.

Jeff Cooper kind of popularized what he called Condition 1. This is pretty safe under all conditions. Israelis, in the forties and later, advocated what Cooper later called Condtion Three. This was certainly safe for carry, but wasn't so safe if one actually needed a pistol for self defense, which may have actually been the reason for carrying it in the first place. C'est la vie.

The OP points out that what might seem a safe compromise really IS NOT, at least with a 1911 as opposed to a Series 80. Any of us who were contemplating that error owe him thanks for pointing it out.

The Israelites used Condition three because they were using a complete mishmash of weapons and trying to teach many people with no previous firearms experience to safely use a pistol. Imagine trying to teach 20 people who might have 20 different pistols. Condition 3 is the quickest and safest way to do it.

Anyone who is not serious enough about personal defense with a firearm and preparation for such to not be aware of this information should not be carrying a 1911. This is very basic, threshold minimum level knowledge (and training), not arcana.

Very true. I shoot a 1911 pistol in matches every other month. The other months I use a Canik TP9SFx. I keep trying to drop the safety on the Canik.