A Case against manual safetys?

[shocker]

Our hero is WAY TOO CLOSE to our bad guy and our hero is obviously threatening our bad guy.

"Distance is a tactical advantage", what I have written in my notes from my ccw class.
I would be so out of there. Dial 911 and I've done my civic duty.

Anybody see the video of a average size bro' knocking out an NFL lineman with a single punch? Learned him not to intervene in a street fight.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The OP didn't ask, but of course the discussion became about this, so I'll respond.

There is no way I would have engaged in that kerfuffle. My desire for snacks would have faded, and I would have called 911 while en route to White Castle . . .

 

[KSDeputy]

When we changed from .357 revolvers to model 645 pistols, we had a lengthy training class about how the new guns functioned. I never carried a DA/SA pistol with the safety on, and never will. These pistols are as safe as revolvers as long as you know how to operate them. They remain my handgun of choice.

 

[fredj338]

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

My two cents: never bring fists to a gunfight. You should also never bring a gun to a fistfight. Starting out in spitting distance is a great way to get murdered with your own carry piece.



This. Doesn't matter what you carry--presuming you color inside the lines--but it does matter that you carry and use it correctly. Maybe this guy would be better off with a Glock. That's fine.



Correct. A year or two ago I counseled a prospective CCWer on exactly that, with the same advice.



And if circumstances, outcomes, or political winds were different, where would the good prosecutor be?

Yes--I think this was a dumb fight to get involved in.

100% My first thought was why is he entering the store to get involved with his gun out? Do not get involved in something with your gun you wouldn't without. Once the gun comes out, you are zero options. It becomes a fight for the gun. HE was very lucky he wasn't killed with his own gun because I am pretty sure the attacker would have shot him if he got the gun.

 

[pharmer]

If'n his first shot was a foot higher it would have turned out 100% better. Joe

 

[Muss Muggins]

. . . Once the gun comes out, you are zero options. . .

You can always put it back. It's a very dangerous mindset to have that mandates shooting once you unholster . . .

 

[fredj338]

You can always put it back. It's a very dangerous mindset to have that mandates shooting once you unholster . . .

Not really. Why else would you be pulling a gun out & pointing it at someone if not intending to possibly shoot them ? Certainly more dangerous to be NOT prepared to shoot once the gun is out of the holster?? That is how guns get taken away from people. It is a degree of force or red line for use of deadly force.
Kinda hard to put the gun away if you need both hands to fight with? So yes, come into the fist fight with gun out, you have severally limited your open hand abilities IMO. Just not how I would have handled that. My guns is not for a threat but to defend my life against imminent death or injury. I'll stand by my original statement, don't go into something with the gun you wouldn't without. The gun comes out, you better be prepared to be shooting or it becomes a fight for the gun. Clearly what happened in that scenario.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Duly noted . . .

Not really. Why else would you be pulling a gun out & pointing it at someone if not intending to possibly shoot them ? Certainly more dangerous to be NOT prepared to shoot once the gun is out of the holster?? That is how guns get taken away from people. It is a degree of force or red line for use of deadly force.
Kinda hard to put the gun away if you need both hands to fight with? So yes, come into the fist fight with gun out, you have severally limited your open hand abilities IMO. Just not how I would have handled that. My guns is not for a threat but to defend my life against imminent death or injury. I'll stand by my original statement, don't go into something with the gun you wouldn't without. The gun comes out, you better be prepared to be shooting or it becomes a fight for the gun. Clearly what happened in that scenario.

 

[Jack Flash]

You have to size up the situation before you get neck deep in it. The customer in the video did not seem to do this. You can't stumble across a raging berserker and say:
"Sir! You must cease this most objectionable behavior forthwith!"

The miscreant is mad dog mean, fueled by emotion, alcohol, and / or drugs. He is not just ready to fight, he is fighting.

This is not the time to start bumbling and fumbling as you think about what you are going to do. Fortunately the good guy was able to recover and do reasonably well, considering his horrible start.

I agree with those who say back out of the store and call 911. Be ready if he comes raging out of the store after you.

 

[Smoke]

Not really. Why else would you be pulling a gun out & pointing it at someone if not intending to possibly shoot them ? Certainly more dangerous to be NOT prepared to shoot once the gun is out of the holster?? That is how guns get taken away from people. It is a degree of force or red line for use of deadly force.
Kinda hard to put the gun away if you need both hands to fight with? So yes, come into the fist fight with gun out, you have severally limited your open hand abilities IMO. Just not how I would have handled that. My guns is not for a threat but to defend my life against imminent death or injury. I'll stand by my original statement, don't go into something with the gun you wouldn't without. The gun comes out, you better be prepared to be shooting or it becomes a fight for the gun. Clearly what happened in that scenario.

Just curious Fred, how much real world self defense experience do you have?

 

[ContinentalOp]

So, if you are carrying a 1911-style pistol you should never jam it into an opponent's body, thus disengaging the disconnector and disabling the pistol, because you are then unable to fire the pistol.

That applies to all semi-autos.

 

[ContinentalOp]

In a situation involving a revolver it is fairly easy to grab the revolver around the frame, holding the cylinder to keep it from rotating and preventing movement of the hammer. This was actually taught to us in defensive tactics classes when I was a young cop.

And there's a counter to that, though I'm not sure how many people practice it, or even know it.

 

[ContinentalOp]

There are pros and cons to every type of weapon. People should work out what combination of features, or lack thereof, will work best for them, and practice/train accordingly. Some people prefer SA semi-autos. Some people prefer striker-fired pistols. Some people, like me, prefer hammer-fired DA (or DAO) guns.

And some people like mini-revolvers and derringers. They're beyond help.

 

[Imissedagain]

And there's a counter to that, though I'm not sure how many people practice it, or even know it.

Please do not leave us in suspense.

 

[fatcat3]

In a situation involving a revolver it is fairly easy to grab the revolver around the frame, holding the cylinder to keep it from rotating and preventing movement of the hammer. This was actually taught to us in defensive tactics classes when I was a young cop.

Ya I was taught that also and always thought I'd like to see that done in the real world.

I might get struck by lightning but that done keep me from going outside.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Please do not leave us in suspense.

Twist the gun in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling the trigger.

Obviously, that shouldn't be done in isolation, i.e., using one's off-hand to strike the attacker.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Ya I was taught that also and always thought I'd like to see that done in the real world.

I might get struck by lightning but that done keep me from going outside.

Not exactly the same thing, but I know of one real-life incident involving a cop defending himself against a revolver-armed assailant. The cop grabbed his attacker's revolver, and shoved the web of his hand between the frame and the hammer nose, which cut up his hand but kept the gun from firing. The officer ultimately prevailed.

What I don't know is if that was an intentional act on the officer's part or if he was trying to grab the cylinder and either missed or slipped.

 

[MLA6021]

A very violent, physical, close quarter encounter with an angry unafraid criminal. That crook was not only a maniac, but crazy as an outhouse rat.
Looks to me like the good guy did pretty good. He won and the criminal ended up horizontal. His handgun choice? Looked like it did pretty good.
How many of those critiquing him would have fared as well? Mind you, fared as well in a close quarter physical fight in conjunction with the firearm use? How many critiquing him are not in good physical condition and would have tumbled into the soda bottles and potato chips, pistol all askew? and would have lost...
If you never been in an actual violent encounter/fight with another grown man, I gotta tell you, it's eye opening. The first time I got in one as a cop part of me was in disbelief at first. Thinking "what the heck? this guy wants to fight me?". Not only are you fighting the guy, but you are also trying to keep the gun side away from him. It's something else to experience.

 

[REM 3200]

Carry what you want, how you want. I won't convince you otherwise, you won't convince me otherwise. That's why they sell all them different pistols and have all them different classes. #YouRollYourWayIRollMine

'Bout sez it all !

 

[Ziggy2525]

Twist the gun in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling the trigger.

Obviously, that shouldn't be done in isolation, i.e., using one's off-hand to strike the attacker.

I've heard about that approach. My question is, if you have the grippy handle part and the bad guy has the slippery cylinder part, wouldn't it be easier to just pull the revolver straight back out of his hand? Just wondering.