What Ammunition For 1916 Mk II .455 Eley
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ldausmc1369
US Veteran
Anyone ever use 450 Corto in a .455? I'm told it will work and fire form brass. It appears the ballistics are comparable.
Since Starline is making .455 Mk I brass with the thin (.039") case rim I emailed them earlier this week asking they consider making the longer Mk I brass . . . no reply yet.
Question . . . can I get by with using either my Dillon or RCBS .45 Colt die set? I feel confident the resizing die will work and plan to use my Dillon powder funnel for an expander die . . . but wonder if the seating die has the range to handle the Mk I brass (.45 Colt brass is 1.278" and .455 Mk I is 0.886" . . . a .392" difference)
Anyone with experience . . . or know the answer?
Thanks, Russ
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Starline makes the MK II case and Jet Bullets in Alberta, CA makes the correct 265 grain HB bullet, so just like me, you can roll your own for those Webley MKVI;s and S&W Mk II's. I also picked up some circular shims that allows one to shoot 0.455 rounds in cut Webley MK VIs and their later Enfield cousins. Yes Enfield did make MKVIs in the early 1920s. Dave_n
IIRC you can make Mk I out of 45 Schofield by thinning the rim from the forward side(lathe) then trimming to length.
With Fiocci making cartridges, I really don't get why Starline is making Mk II rather than Mk I brass.
With Fiocci making cartridges, I really don't get why Starline is making Mk II rather than Mk I brass.
Several of us here tried to persuade them that MKI was superior. They seemed to have their mind made up, MkII was it..............
You may have to shorten the seating die and the crimp die. Or you could pick up a set of .45 Auto Rim dies. I'm not sure if even AR dies will short enough.
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Lee dies in .455 are .45Colt carbide sizer .45acp expander and .455 seating die. they are cheap and come with a shell holder..............
Thank you, that's very helpful. I have a Lee .455 Webley set in my Midway shopping cart and just need to go ahead and buy it.
Russ
From my experience from reloading this caliber, I have to say that the 45 bullets often used in 455 reloads do not perform as well as original design hollow base cone shaped lead bullets. I have compared the RCBS cast bullets to both standard 45 LRN and HBWC and found them to give superior accuracy. Budget Shooters Supply sells the real deal, plus you can purchase a 455 RCBS bullet mold for your reloading.
I know that there were a few round nosed bullets for this caliber throughout the years, but the 265g HB tapered round nose lead bullets used almost exclusively in the 455 S&Ws and Colts of the early Twentieth Century. I now cast my own and use Alox for lube, simple and effective. Picture of a loaded round compared to Fiocchi factory ammo in the next to last image. Same style bullet was manufactured well into WWII in Canada. Interesting to note they were jacketed.
I know that there were a few round nosed bullets for this caliber throughout the years, but the 265g HB tapered round nose lead bullets used almost exclusively in the 455 S&Ws and Colts of the early Twentieth Century. I now cast my own and use Alox for lube, simple and effective. Picture of a loaded round compared to Fiocchi factory ammo in the next to last image. Same style bullet was manufactured well into WWII in Canada. Interesting to note they were jacketed.
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CIL Dominion 455 Colt Data
I forgot that I had this chart. It lists pistol and revolver ballistics data for CIL Dominion ammo (Canadian Industries Limited). This is from the early 1970s.
Notice the curious selection of cartridges.... You have the 45 Colt and the 455 Colt for big bore revolvers, but no 45 ACP.
CIL Dominion did offer 44 Magnum, 38-40, and 44-40, but they were always listed as rifle ammunition!
Incidentally, Phil Sharpe, in his 1937 reloading book, mentions the 455 Colt as being ideally suited for the reloader, and being equivalent for all practical purposes to the 45 Colt, 45 ACP, and 45 Auto Rim. He also mentions that the 455 MK.II as being less well suited, due to the thin case walls and balloon head primer pocket. He also admonishes the original style hollow base bullet and recommends reloaders to use plain base cast bullets.
Jim
I forgot that I had this chart. It lists pistol and revolver ballistics data for CIL Dominion ammo (Canadian Industries Limited). This is from the early 1970s.
Notice the curious selection of cartridges.... You have the 45 Colt and the 455 Colt for big bore revolvers, but no 45 ACP.
CIL Dominion did offer 44 Magnum, 38-40, and 44-40, but they were always listed as rifle ammunition!
Incidentally, Phil Sharpe, in his 1937 reloading book, mentions the 455 Colt as being ideally suited for the reloader, and being equivalent for all practical purposes to the 45 Colt, 45 ACP, and 45 Auto Rim. He also mentions that the 455 MK.II as being less well suited, due to the thin case walls and balloon head primer pocket. He also admonishes the original style hollow base bullet and recommends reloaders to use plain base cast bullets.
Jim
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Jack Flash
Member
Very interesting chart. It looks like their .455 Colt load was pretty tame (265 grain bullet at 770 ft/s). The .45 Colt load is more what I would expect.
How about that 158 grain bullet at 1410 ft/s .357 Mag load!
How about that 158 grain bullet at 1410 ft/s .357 Mag load!
PJGP
Member
The British miltary specs for the .455 were:
Mk I Blackpowder and Cordite: 265 Gr lead at 700 fps giving 286 ft-lbs
Mk II Cordite: 265 Gr lead at 600 fps giving 212 ft-lbs
Mk VI Cordite or Nitro: 265 Gr jacketed at 620 fps giving 225 ft-lbs
Presumably cordite generated too much pressure in the shorter case for 700 fps.
So the Dominion load was considerably more potent. However, I assume that the development of better nitro powders enabled higher velocities without excess pressure. Also remember that it would have been developed for the Mounties' Colt New Service, "A particularly Strong, Heavy Weapon", and not the Webleys.
Peter
Really. I was thinking more like 850 fps.
Well, called Starline today and made the pitch. The nice lady said she's pass it along. I think they'd sell out a run in a couple of weeks.
Back in the '70s, I bought a W&S MK IV. It had not been altered. I found a box of CIL .455 ammo. That was the cleanest shooting ammo I have ever had. After shooting, just a tiny bit of ash was left in the empty case.
Jack Flash
Member
That's what I was saying, referencing the chart data.
Per the chart, CIL's .45 Colt round launches a 250 gr lead bullet @ 855 ft/s.
PJGP
Member
Don't forget that the 45 Colt case is much longer than either 455 case. In the case of the Mk I case (ouch!) the standard load of 18 Gr BP leaves no space for any more. The 45 Colt takes something like 27 Gr, from memory.
Peter
It seems to me that Canadian loads of 770 fps are much higher than any other sources I have found. According to my references and that of Barnes book, the 265 grain bullet factory standard loads only achieved around 600 fps.
Terry Wieland authored an article about reloading the 455 in Dec 2017 Handloader Magazine and ran speeds for several reloads for the 455 Mark II. His hottest loads listed was around 650 fps. He also tested several boxes of Fiocchi factory ammo which ran from 600 to 700 fps. His 650 fps 265 grain loads used 3.5 grains of Bullseye.
Since British revolvers were top-break, I think the speeds were kept low compared to many 45 Colt recipes. When the military ammunition was made and used, they had to load for all 455 revolvers out there, solid frame and top-break revolvers. I am sure that the S&W was a stronger revolver than Webley or Enfield and could handle faster ammo.
Terry Wieland authored an article about reloading the 455 in Dec 2017 Handloader Magazine and ran speeds for several reloads for the 455 Mark II. His hottest loads listed was around 650 fps. He also tested several boxes of Fiocchi factory ammo which ran from 600 to 700 fps. His 650 fps 265 grain loads used 3.5 grains of Bullseye.
Since British revolvers were top-break, I think the speeds were kept low compared to many 45 Colt recipes. When the military ammunition was made and used, they had to load for all 455 revolvers out there, solid frame and top-break revolvers. I am sure that the S&W was a stronger revolver than Webley or Enfield and could handle faster ammo.
Jack Flash
Member
Ken Waters lists a max load that he chrono'd at 755 ft/s out of a Colt New Service. The bullet weight was 263 grains over a charge of Unique in a Dominion .455 Colt case.
So yes, 770 ft/s sounds high. But then CIL may have been shooting out of a special test gun / barrel, not a production revolver.
So yes, 770 ft/s sounds high. But then CIL may have been shooting out of a special test gun / barrel, not a production revolver.
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