Is the 40 S&W a must have cartridge?

[Golphin]

I don't know if you need a 40 but I don't. I have 223, 9mm, 45acp and 38/357 and don't own dies for 40 ammo so I know I don't need that pistol round.

 

[Echo40]

I've been a 9mm fan since before there was a 10mm, or a .40.
But the deals on 40's couldn't be ignored, so I bought a Gen4 G22. Described by the vender as "very good", it turned out to be like new. Not bad, for $319, including night sights.
At the range, I found it shot about the same as my Glock 17.
I enjoyed shooting it so much, it became my house pistol.

For the longest time I actually thought that there were no .40 S&W deals in my area, but it turns out that either they just took longer to show up here or were just so darn good that everyone was snatching them up before I could get to them because a couple weeks ago I found a LNiB SW40VE at my LGS for $199, and I jumped on it immediately.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, regardless of what anybody's feelings may be regarding the .40 S&W cartridge, you'd have to be a total fool not to take advantage of these deals, especially considering just how easily a .40cal pistol can be converted to 9mm Luger or .357 SIG.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Please believe me, I am NOT trying to resurrect a "which is better" thread, I am trying to spark an informed conversation in trying to decide whether a handgun capable of firing the 40 S&W should be in my future.

I realize that the 40S&W development was somewhat a parody of Goldilocks and the Three Bears: the 9mm was not enough, the 45 was too much, and the 40 was just right! I have the opportunity to get a Sig 229 at a decent price, and it is a metal frame, not polymer. Other than price and the fact that it is a Sig, it can easily be converted to 357 Sig.

Realistically, I don't need a 40, since I have both 9s and 45s which I can handle competently. If I need to make a 40 something hole, I have a 41 Magnum. If a need a flat shooting hotrod, I have 357 Magnums. All of my firearm purchases are mission driven, but I already have handguns in calibers capable of over-shadowing a 40 S&W or a 357 Sig.

While I would like a metal frame Sig, I don't need a 40 S&W or a 357 Sig. Could anyone help me shed some light on why I should purchase a 40 S&W?

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

When the .40 and .357 sig came out in the 1990s I passed on both being already heavily into both 9mm and .45s over the prior 20 years .... and feeling that both calibers were answers to questions that didn't need answering....................................

During the last gun/ammo crisis I bought a lightly used Sig 229 with both a .40S&W and .357sig barrel with 4 magazines ( I added 2 more) to cover my SHTF needs. All the above is still in my safe, unfired in the past 6 years........ with about 500 rounds of .40 and .357sig ammo....... just in case.

 

[Gene L]

Not a Must Have round, but I carried one for a pretty long time. I didn't find the recoil all that excessive. My Department changed to 9mm some time after I retired, because it was time to replace the Glocks we had, and .40 ammo was increasingly hard to find on government contracts, which we were bound by.

It's a good round, but not irreplaceable.

A long part of my LEO experience in the early years, we didn't have access to rifles. We had shotguns and .38 special revolvers, but I can't remember showing one. There was no SWAT team then, and the bad guys weren't as well armed as they are today. When I was Chief Deputy of my last agency, I armed my guys with patrol rifles because I don't like shotguns very much and do like rifles. We were one of the first in GA to do so...Ruger Mini 14s, which were fine at typical cop ranges. At the time, the Rugers weren't all that more expensive than SKSs, which because of budget restrictions, we considered, but rejected. We paid $300 each for the Rugers. Our first training with the rifles was on 9/11. Someone had a unit FM radio on and at first I thought it was an accident...then the second plane struck.

We (my former agency) now issues ARs. The Sheriff decided to let individual deputies buy the surplus Mini 14 rifles for what we paid for them, and I bought an excellent one. A good deal for us, and a good deal for the treasury, since a trade-in would probably have bought half that price.

As for stopping power, it depends on a couple of things...shot placement and bad guy motivation. There was a few months ago a shooting in Athens, GA, where I worked formerly. It was a textbook shooting, the bad guy didn't go out but did go down with the first shots, but got up and attacked with a knife. Where he was terminated by a very good shot.

Here's a video;

GRAPHIC: Video shows officers pleading with armed man before shooting

 

[mi2600]

I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I already load 20+ calibers and I'm not space-restricted for my hobbies. So, when I found a 4.25" Beretta 96 (with grip laser) for $300 I thought,"Why not". Brass is dirt cheap and cast bullets also fit my 38-40s. What's not to like?

 

[Univibe]

The .40 was solution to a non existent problem that arose when special agent Dove shot Michael Platt. It should never have been born. Won't do a thing that 8mm won't do, and costs more, kicks harder, has less capacity, and can increase gun wear. Avoid it.

Same with the 45 ACP. Didn't kill Moros any deader than a 38.

 

[crazyphil]

First you have to believe in the one shot stop mythology, everything has failed at one time or another with solid COM hits. All handgun rds, all 12ga loads & many rifle rounds have all failed to deliver a one shot stop at some point. Even if the OSS were true, one still has to be able to deliver the solid COM hit. A G22 is a manageable pistol for that, a G27, not so much. Everything is bullet & shot placement specific. A good 9mm JHP is better than a mediocre 40 JHP or even 45. So it comes back to what you can deliver fast accurate good hits with.

That's why it's 97% and not 100%

 

[jupiter1]

The .40 was solution to a non existent problem that arose when special agent Dove shot Michael Platt. It should never have been born. Won't do a thing that 8mm won't do, and costs more, kicks harder, has less capacity, and can increase gun wear. Avoid it.

Same with the 45 ACP. Didn't kill Moros any deader than a 38.

It's a bit ironic but if the agent shot Platt with a 9mm FMJ or a .38 RNL, there would have been sufficient penetration to pass through the heart instead of stopping just short of it. The expansion of the 9mm silvertip, and any effect of a temporary cavity from bullet expansion, didn't stop him. Sufficient penetration from a non deforming bullet may have ended that fight.

The result would have been the same with a similarly expanding .40 bullet that didn't penetrate far enough.

 

[biku324]

OMG! Is this thread STILL going on???

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

The whole world is going after the 9mm squirt guns like most all LEO............REMEMBER the Miami shoot out with the police and FBI..........EVERYBODY was RUNNING AWAY from the 9mm........Thus the 40 came out and ruled the roost for 25 years.........People forget and people most always follow the one that squawks the loudest. Reckon BS sells.

 

[Moo Moo]

My old department, New South Wales Police Force, is also going over to 9mm. Apparently being replaced by G17 Gen 5's. NSWPF have been running G22, G23, and G27 since about 1998.

 

[Echo40]

It really is rather remarkable just how much influence the FBI has over Law Enforcement agencies when even ones in foreign nations are dropping the .40 S&W in favor of 9mm Luger.

I know that folks will argue that it has more to do with the statistics between the two cartridges, but the fact that foreign countries ever adopted .40 S&W in the first place suggests otherwise.

Seriously, what if the FBI had decided to switch from .40 S&W to 5.7x28 FN, would everybody be following their lead on that too? Because I strongly doubt that every law enforcement agency on Earth which previously adopted .40 S&W has conducted their own testing and reached the same conclusion, especially considering all of the short-term expenses that said testing and the subsequent switchover would entail, so it just seems like everyone is taking the FBI's word for it. Never mind the fact that the FBI has never actually divulged the parameters of their testing, nor the details regarding what loads were tested, and certainly not the smoking gun that is the obvious motivation for why said tests were ever allegedly conducted in the first place.

 

[lrrifleman]

Honestly, I am quite amazed at how this thread has evolved! Looking at the initial post that started this dialog, I never suggested that my purchase would be for carry, but more as a range toy. I can only imagine where this would have gone had I asked about a: 400 Corbon, 357/44 Bain & Davis, a 9mm Dillon, a 45 Win Mag or any other capable but forgotten cartridge!

Obviously, the 40 S&W is not a handgun hunting round, and most likely wouldn't be a first choice for metallic silhouette. It's forte apparently is as a law enforcement round, much like the: 32 S&W, 38 S&W, 38 Special, 9mm Luger, 41 Magnum mid-range load, or 45 ACP ... with each appearance being an "improvement" on a predecessor cartridge. And many people follow law enforcement selections for self-defense.

Listening, I hear a few arguments ... but what I hear most is how it is better than/worse than the 9mm. A 610 would probably be better than a 57, because of 40 S&W/10 mm interchangability (as a sporting or self-defense round).

I wouldn't have a problem stocking/reloading 40 S&W. What I hear, is that in an appropriately sized pistol, it could be a viable self-defense/service round. I guess what is missing is that it doesn't have a definitive use reputation.

Thank you are for your input!

 

[Buckeye63]

A Glock 27 is my EDC .. I have two Glock 23's all are Gen 3 ... All are loaded with Federal 180gr HST ...

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Honestly, I am quite amazed at how this thread has evolved! Looking at the initial post that started this dialog, I never suggested that my purchase would be for carry, but more as a range toy. I can only imagine where this would have gone had I asked about a: 400 Corbon, 357/44 Bain & Davis, a 9mm Dillon, a 45 Win Mag or any other capable but forgotten cartridge!

Obviously, the 40 S&W is not a handgun hunting round, and most likely wouldn't be a first choice for metallic silhouette. It's forte apparently is as a law enforcement round, much like the: 32 S&W, 38 S&W, 38 Special, 9mm Luger, 41 Magnum mid-range load, or 45 ACP ... with each appearance being an "improvement" on a predecessor cartridge. And many people follow law enforcement selections for self-defense.

Listening, I hear a few arguments ... but what I hear most is how it is better than/worse than the 9mm. A 610 would probably be better than a 57, because of 40 S&W/10 mm interchangability (as a sporting or self-defense round).

I wouldn't have a problem stocking/reloading 40 S&W. What I hear, is that in an appropriately sized pistol, it could be a viable self-defense/service round. I guess what is missing is that it doesn't have a definitive use reputation.

Thank you are for your input!

FWIW i shoot my cast 170 gr truncated cone bullets in both my .40's. An original 4006 first year production and a Sig 229. I even tried them in my 1006 and surprisingly they worked.

 

[Echo40]

-SNIP-
I wouldn't have a problem stocking/reloading 40 S&W. What I hear, is that in an appropriately sized pistol, it could be a viable self-defense/service round. I guess what is missing is that it doesn't have a definitive use reputation.

I would say that the assertion that 9mm Luger is equally as effective as .40 S&W speaks volumes about its reputation as a self-defense/duty cartridge.

Honestly, the FBI never even claimed that the switch was due to any particular fault of the cartridge, but merely because they found that modern 9mm Luger loads met their requirements for a duty cartridge, so that along with the 9mm's advantages in magazine capacity and price made the decision to switch over a no-brainer for them.

The .40 S&W still has its place as cartridge for those who desire something will a bit more oomph than 9mm, yet greatly magazine capacity and barrier penetration than .45 ACP.

Personally, I feel that .40 S&W makes the most sense in full-size, double-stack semiautomatic pistols, where its disadvantages versus the 9mm in terms of magazine capacity and felt recoil are less pronounced. In the event in which more citizens felt the need to carry larger, higher capacity firearms, I could see the .40 S&W in higher demand, but right now compact 9mm pistols are all the rage due to their light weight and concealability. Nobody makes lightweight, compact .40 S&W pistols anymore besides Smith & Wesson themselves because they tend to be considered excessive in terms of recoil.

 

[686-380]

Excellent Point!

It really is rather remarkable just how much influence the FBI has over Law Enforcement agencies when even ones in foreign nations are dropping the .40 S&W in favor of 9mm Luger.

I know that folks will argue that it has more to do with the statistics between the two cartridges, but the fact that foreign countries ever adopted .40 S&W in the first place suggests otherwise.

Seriously, what if the FBI had decided to switch from .40 S&W to 5.7x28 FN, would everybody be following their lead on that too? Because I strongly doubt that every law enforcement agency on Earth which previously adopted .40 S&W has conducted their own testing and reached the same conclusion, especially considering all of the short-term expenses that said testing and the subsequent switchover would entail, so it just seems like everyone is taking the FBI's word for it. Never mind the fact that the FBI has never actually divulged the parameters of their testing, nor the details regarding what loads were tested, and certainly not the smoking gun that is the obvious motivation for why said tests were ever allegedly conducted in the first place.

One of the fantastic things about progress is that we have technology avaulable to do our own tests. Ballistic gelatin is available and relatively cheap. I performed my own experiments and put them on YouTube, as have many others.

It's funny you should mention the 5,7 X 28mm caliber. If U.S. law enforcement were truly concerned about mitigating risk, they probably SHOULD consider adopting it. The reputation is that of cop killer but the reality is the light 27 grain bullets can't retain too much energy after hitting flesh. My experiments got pretty disappointing penetration, IIRC but the wound tracks were NASTY. I love my Five-seveN but it's rather bulky for concealed carry. I imagine it would excel as a duty sidearm.

My bottom line is I carry mostly .40 as my EDC. It's just what I like and I love my P224.

 

[Rammer Jammer]

Not in my experience.

I'm not a 40 S&W hater but have no desire to own one.

 

[Echo40]

Supposedly the 5.7x28 cartridge and the FN FiveSeveN pistol was originally poised to replace 9mm Parabellum within NATO forces worldwide back in the early 2000s, but the German delegation allegedly protested solely out of national pride over the German 9mm and the competing H&K 4.6x30 being rejected in favor of the French 5.7x28, which slowed the whole thing down to a crawl until it's was eventually dropped altogether.

So yeah, apparently the 5.7x28 cartridge performed well enough to convince the majority of NATO forces to dump 9mm in favor of it at one point in time. How well it would have actually performed in combat is anybody's guess, but it would have been interesting to see how it turned out.

Seriously, I wish the "What if Machine" from Futurama was real, because I would love to see how that would have worked out, not to mention if certain 9mm Fanboys I've seen online who push it as the best just because it's the most popular duty cartridge would be influenced by it. (i.e. Would those same people be making the exact same statements over 5.7x28 or would they still love 9mm and claim that the military was foolish to replace it?)
Ah, but then again, I would also love to see how folks in general would react if something impossibly crazy were to happen such as the FBI reviving the Gyrojet as their primary duty cartridge, complete with outrageous claims about how modern CNC machining have made the Gyrojet equally reliable to conventional centerfire cartridges, just to see how much influence over worldwide Law Enforcement and civilians they have. I'm actually fairly certain that a large amount of folks on gun forums would immediately be rushing out to buy Gyrojet pistols then singing the praises of the cartridge, how it was ahead of its time, how revolutionary it is, and how it's better than everything else because it works better underwater and possibly in the vacuum of outerspace, complete with silly arguments against how it having virtually no energy at the muzzle is easily mitigated by simply putting enough space between you and your attacker for it to pick up sufficient speed to actually harm them rather than being deflected off their torso.

 

[Zebra War Wagon]

I didn't read all of the responses, but my experience has been positive with a 40 cal pistol. In my case, I purchased the optional 357 Sig barrel and a 9mm conversion barrel, so I now have 3 calibers in just one pistol. Additionally, in 40 cal, there are many various bullet weights and speeds; making the ammo selection performance very versatile -light and fast or heavy and slow. And as other have already stated, there are many good deals to be had on 40 cal pistols.