Victory data base

[ordnanceguy]

Found this at work the other day. According to the other document, these seven revolvers, along with the Colt, were traded for four new 870 Shotguns and 10 shotgun cases. The department Armorer, who was also an FFL dealer handled the transaction. No idea how our agency (Hamilton County, OH Sheriff) got them in the first place. It would be nice to see if anyone out there wound up with any of them. My suspicion is that at least some of them came straight from the factory to the SO as I have seen two that we still have that are in very good condition.

21bo3:

Thanks for posting this and the earlier data that you had recovered from the Hamilton County, Ohio Sheriff's Department. You had provided a lot of serial numbers in your Post #1961. Because there were so many I put them aside to enter into the Database later on. It then slipped off my radar until I found the data once again and plugged it into the Victory Model Database today.

You mentioned that you wondered if any of those guns had found their way to collectors here. I don't know if they ended up with guys here on the Forum. That's because I don't record the source of my data in order to protect the confidentiality of the guys who you provide me with data.

However, in a somewhat remarkable turn, I found that 2 of the Victory serials you reported as having been in the inventory of the Sheriff's Dept in 1986 were already in the Database. Specifically, V112556 was reported to be a Navy marked example with a factory letter. V92382 was also reported to be a Navy marked example but it had no factory letter data.

So, we know at least those 2 revolvers were not destroyed and eventually made their way from the Sheriff's Dept. into the hands of a couple of collectors somewhere. If those numbers pop up again some day we can now tell the owners a little bit more of the history of their Victories.

Thanks again to you and to all of the other collectors who have contributed information to the Database.

 

[Hoya74]

Well-traveled Victory

S&W Victory 1943 shipped to USN Rosslyn, VA, likely the OSS Fowler Building.

P proof on left upper frame and “W” marked butt. German post-war eagles and police marked “70 WB-S-HDBG” for Baden-Württemberg-Stadtkreis-Heidelberg on backstrap and left grip base. Wurttemberg Baden is a German state; Stadtkreis translates to urban district; and Heidelberg is a city.

Geco retail marked and refinished. Numbers match on butt, cylinder, and under barrel and right grip. S&W letter included.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hoya74:

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your post. I am accustomed to reading your frequent posts over on the Colt Forum but it is nice to see you here.

The posting of your pics is most valuable as it provides additional information for the Database. As it happens your revolver was already in the Database with the notation that it had been up for auction in the February 2020 Morphy auction. The W mark on the butt and the West German Police markings on the back strap had not been observed or disclosed in the Morphy auction listing, so those bits of additional data help fill in important gaps.

Neat gun. Stick around the Forum here and we might just turn you into a S&W guy.

 

[Hoya74]

Hoya74:

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your post. I am accustomed to reading your frequent posts over on the Colt Forum but it is nice to see you here.

The posting of your pics is most valuable as it provides additional information for the Database. As it happens your revolver was already in the Database with the notation that it had been up for auction in the February 2020 Morphy auction. The W mark on the butt and the West German Police markings on the back strap had not been observed or disclosed in the Morphy auction listing, so those bits of additional data help fill in important gaps.

Neat gun. Stick around the Forum here and we might just turn you into a S&W guy.

Thank you Charlie.

I saw the Victory on Gunbroker recently very early in the morning and used BIN once I read the letter and saw the Rosslyn destination.

Interestingly, I found a 1939 Congressional Navy Appropriations for leasing the Fowler Building in Rosslyn VA, the frequently listed destination for Colt OSS pistols. So perhaps the Navy was the managing agency or landlord for the Fowler Building which might explain the S&W letter listing the destination as "United States Navy, Rosslyn, VA."


My collecting lane is mostly WWII military which explains my interest in the Victory models while Colt offers a wider variety of WWII gems.

 

[opoefc]

Add to data base: (1) V179435 Victory Model , 2 inch Bbl. 99+% all numbers match. .38 Spl. Open on the books, however this is one of the guns that went to OSS at Ft. Mason, CA., but missed being recorded in the shipping records. (2) 964262 , 4 in, .38 Spl. shipped 4/10/42 to USN. Factory restored dec. 1958. Stamped "Property of U S Navy" on left frame. (3) V291841 BSR .38S&W, 5 in bbl., "Converted by Cogswell & Harrison Ltd London" stamped on left frame. (4) V24053 4 in .38 Spl. USN marked on top strap. (5) V662730 4 in Bbl, 38 Spl. 95% 96) 992017 4 in .38spl. no lanyard swivel 99% (6) V293135 4 in Bbl, 38 Spl., 90% US Property GHD on top strap. (7) V5903 4 in 38 Spl., US Navy on top strap 95% (8) V349483 4 in Bbl 38 Spl. US Property GHD on top strap 98%. Ed.

 

[tacklancaster]

Help?

Hello. I have an unusual victory model no one has been able to help me with. S# V165311. 2" pinned barrel, 5 screw, chrome with stag grips. Any help and info for documentation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Tack

 

[kwill1911]

Hello. I have an unusual victory model no one has been able to help me with. S# V165311. 2" pinned barrel, 5 screw, chrome with stag grips. Any help and info for documentation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Tack

Welcome to the forum, Tack. You have a pretty common gun. It started life as a British Service Revolver (BSR) in .38 S&W caliber. Many of these got the same treatment as yours did after the war--cut barrel, nickel plated, lanyard swivel removed and hole filled and plastic grips attached. Some have the cylinder reamed to shoot .38 Special and you'll get differing opinions as to how safe and successful such conversions are. Many of these were sold via mail order from ads in gun magazines. There are lots of examples just like yours on this forum, including in this very thread.

 

[DWalt]

Hello. I have an unusual victory model no one has been able to help me with. S# V165311. 2" pinned barrel, 5 screw, chrome with stag grips. Any help and info for documentation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Tack

That SN tags its original shipping date to around late 1942-early 1943. Most of these revolvers were made for use by the British Commonwealth military during WWII, in caliber .38 S&W. In the late 1950s through most of the 1960s, the British surplussed out hundreds of thousands of them, which were bought up at scrap metal prices by various American surplus weapons dealers who imported them. To make them sell better in the USA, those dealers often chopped the barrels to 2", rechambered them to .38 special and frequently reblued or nickel plated them and added some cheap plastic grips. Most were sold by mail order (which was legal in the USA back then) for prices in the $25-$35 range. They have no collectible value. Probably the most notorious example was the chopped Victory allegedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Dallas police officer J. D. Tippett right after the JFK assassination in 1963.

 

[tenntex32]

S&W Victory 1943 shipped to USN Rosslyn, VA, likely the OSS Fowler Building.

P proof on left upper frame and “W” marked butt. German post-war eagles and police marked “70 WB-S-HDBG” for Baden-Württemberg-Stadtkreis-Heidelberg on backstrap and left grip base. Wurttemberg Baden is a German state; Stadtkreis translates to urban district; and Heidelberg is a city.

Geco retail marked and refinished. Numbers match on butt, cylinder, and under barrel and right grip. S&W letter included.

View attachment 451579

View attachment 451580

View attachment 451581

View attachment 451583

View attachment 451584

Nice example. I will eventually add a foreign use stamped 4" 38spl Victory to the collection.

Dale

 

[Lady Smith]

Hey guys.
Did I miss something or we lost the first post on this thread with all data ?

 

[grendelbean]

Early Pre-Victory with Australian Markings

I have been keeping an eye open hoping to pick up one each of the British Commonwealth-marked Victory or Pre-Victory Models. Noticed this one and it seemed interesting (to my novice eye anyway).
It is a Model 1905 M&P, Fourth Change 38 S&W revolver that was, I think, purchased directly from S&W by the British or at least a very early DSC contract gun. Serial on butt 790256.
It has no markings beyond the standard S&W markings and Australian markings. No British proof or inspection marks of any kind. The only markings are stampings showing rebuild at Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia in 1955. It also has the A Broad Arrow F mark of the Australian armed forces and an inspector's mark from Lithgow.
With no U.S. or British property markings I'm not clear how the revolver got to Australia but thats not unusual in the War, naturally. The cylinder has been bored out to .38 Special length and dummy rounds fit into the chambers nicely. It is also marked on the right sideplate under the S&W logo,"BORED IN AUSTRALIA." That has to be a commercial marking I would think so the gun must have been surplussed out but there are no markings showing that either.
Hope someone has some facts since thats all I know or can surmise about this interesting gun.

 

[grendelbean]

Post-Victory Appropriate for data base?

Have a very nice looking post-Victory Model .38 M&P. Serial number S 836036. This S serial numbered gun has no hole for swivel. Not blocked, just never there. Otherwise is a great looking Victory Model-style revolver.
I report it here just in case it is appropriate for the data base. I was (and still am) looking for a nice S with blocked swivel hole (as made from an actual Victory Model left over frame). But this one is nice looking. Stocks seem correct for post-war. Thanks.

 

[Absalom]

It is a Model 1905 M&P, Fourth Change 38 S&W revolver that was, I think, purchased directly from S&W by the British or at least a very early DSC contract gun. Serial on butt 790256.
It has no markings beyond the standard S&W markings and Australian markings. No British proof or inspection marks of any kind. The only markings are stampings showing rebuild at Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia in 1955. It also has the A Broad Arrow F mark of the Australian armed forces and an inspector's mark from Lithgow.
With no U.S. or British property markings I'm not clear how the revolver got to Australia but thats not unusual in the War, naturally. The cylinder has been bored out to .38 Special length and dummy rounds fit into the chambers nicely. It is also marked on the right sideplate under the S&W logo,"BORED IN AUSTRALIA." That has to be a commercial marking I would think so the gun must have been surplussed out but there are no markings showing that either.
.... .

With no indications of stop in Britain first, and the A^F mark which is uncommon, this is possibly one of the few thousand BSR’s from an Australia-direct shipment in May 1941. The gun would letter as such if it is. The serial puts it in the right general time frame. We have a member here, I can’t recall who, with a lettered one.

The “Bored in Australia” does sound like a commercial mark, not of US origin. It was refinished again, over the Lithgow FTR stampings. It also doesn’t have the VEGA stamp, like most that came back, so it had a different surplus history.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Grendelbean:

Thanks for your post. I have included your S836036 in the Database although technically it is not a Victory since it does not have a V or SV in the serial prefix. However, I am not that fussy and will say that we have quite a few post-WW2 S prefix guns in the Database since those guns share many features with the Victory.

Member Jack is the local expert on the post-Victory guns around here so I am sure that he will interested to see your example.

Does it have a small "s" on the side plate?

One odd feature I noticed is that the tops of both Magna stocks appear to me to be shaved or sanded down. Are the stocks serial number matching to the gun?

Thanks again for the data.

 

[tymekeeper]

Another victory model for the data base

My dad had this one since I was a child and left it to me when he passed in 1982. i'd love to learn more about it.
The serial no. on the butt is V175051 with a number inside the crane, 22014. The finish is parkerized with very little wear and a faint ring around the cylinder.
It has a 4" barrel; marked on top "SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. USA PATENTED FEB. 6, 06, SEPT. 14, 09, DEC. 29, 14"; marked on left side "SMITH & WESSON"; and marked on the right side "38 S. & W. SPECIAL CTG".
The right side of the frame near the front is marked "MADE IN U.S.A." and the right side plate has the S&W logo.
The hammer is case-hardened, grips are standard smooth walnut, and it has a lanyard swivel.
My cell phone takes good pictures but I'll need instruction as how to send & post them. Thanks.

 

[tenntex32]

My dad had this one since I was a child and left it to me when he passed in 1982. i'd love to learn more about it.
The serial no. on the butt is V175051 with a number inside the crane, 22014. The finish is parkerized with very little wear and a faint ring around the cylinder.
It has a 4" barrel; marked on top "SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. USA PATENTED FEB. 6, 06, SEPT. 14, 09, DEC. 29, 14"; marked on left side "SMITH & WESSON"; and marked on the right side "38 S. & W. SPECIAL CTG".
The right side of the frame near the front is marked "MADE IN U.S.A." and the right side plate has the S&W logo.
The hammer is case-hardened, grips are standard smooth walnut, and it has a lanyard swivel.
My cell phone takes good pictures but I'll need instruction as how to send & post them. Thanks.

Can you tell us if there are any markings on the left side topstrap, such as "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" or "U.S. NAVY"?

Also, are there any flaming ordnance bombs stamped on the revolver such as the one seen on in the butt pic I have provided? (The flaming ordnance bomb is to the left of the "V" on the example I have provided a pic of.)

Dale

 

[grendelbean]

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt. Commercial blue finish that shows just the slightest bit of holster wear. The ejector rod end is knurled and of the typical victory model style.
Seems as though this one was assembled in the transition period when they were finally using up the remaining Victory frames and before they changed over to pure commercial serial numbers?

 

[grendelbean]

Post Victory Model M&P

Hello Grendelbean:

Thanks for your post. I have included your S836036 in the Database although technically it is not a Victory since it does not have a V or SV in the serial prefix. However, I am not that fussy and will say that we have quite a few post-WW2 S prefix guns in the Database since those guns share many features with the Victory.

Member Jack is the local expert on the post-Victory guns around here so I am sure that he will interested to see your example.

Does it have a small "s" on the side plate?

One odd feature I noticed is that the tops of both Magna stocks appear to me to be shaved or sanded down. Are the stocks serial number matching to the gun?

Thanks again for the data.

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt.
Finish is commercial blue with the slightest bit of holster wear.
Ejector rod knob is knurled and of the Victory Model Style.

Stocks show no sign of being sanded down although they are thicker around the middle (obvious by feel) than older Magna. The top of the stocks is contoured down to the frame from just above the medallion, but done so professionally as in the factory, with the finish the same as the rest of the stockls. Yes, the number stamped in two lines on the inside of the right stock is the correct serial for the gun, matching all the other serial markings.
Seems possible this was put together in the transition period when they were running out of remaining Victory Model frames and getting ready to change over the straight "C" commercial era?

 

[Absalom]

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt.
..........
Ejector rod knob is knurled and of the Victory Model Style.
.........
Seems possible this was put together in the transition period when they were running out of remaining Victory Model frames and getting ready to change over the straight "C" commercial era?

Grendelbean:

On your S836036, the absence of both the S and of a plugged lanyard hole clearly establishes that this gun is NOT any “transitional” gun, but a standard post-war M&P newly manufactured in mid-1946 in the S-prefix series.

The ejector rod tip changed in mid-1947.

Some folks keep insisting on calling the entire post-war S-prefix series from 1946 to 1948 “transitional” and think they contain leftover Victory parts. They don’t, and most collectors don’t use the transitional description.

 

[grendelbean]

Thanks for the information. I do have it cataloged in my accumulation as a "Post War M&P."