1100 reasons to hate S&W customer service.

[1&done]

New member here. Long time gun owner, NRA member, shooter, hunter and reloader. I am also a long time lurker here, mostly on the reloading forum, and I have gotten a lot of great nuggets from you all.

I am a new S&W owner and I created this account to post my saga. Maybe someone from S&W customer service will read this and initiate change within their organization. Maybe someone shopping for a new gun will read my post and go buy a Ruger instead. Maybe it will just be therapeutic for me to share.

TLDR: Smith & Wesson light primer strikes, followed up by poor customer service leaves me with an expensive gun suitable only for wall hanging.

I will chunk this up into multiple posts. Hope that's allowed but I don't know if there is a length limit.

What follows is going to be a ton of info intermixed with a significant rant. I don’t want to become one of the haters who say only the old time S&W guns are any good – but defects escaping QC, backed up by poor customer service seems to point me in the direction of my first S&W being my last S&W.

I was smitten by the N-frame model 329PD. If you have not seen this gun, it is fantastic, especially with the wooden grips that are displayed on the gun in the case. Lightweight and pointable. I bought it the first time I saw one and got to handle it brand new from a local chain store.

This appeared to be the perfect mountain hiking gun, easy to carry but packed a nice punch.

Unfortunately, my first range trip showed that the beauty was only skin deep. I was getting >10% light primer strikes with both reloads and factory ammo.

Gun was brought home and given a once over. Clean it. Lube it. Make sure strain screw is tight. Also change out the brutal wooden grip for a rubber one. Return to range, this time also bringing along a Super Redhawk as well as a Shooters Box case gauge and multiple brands of factory ammo (skip reloads for now). Still seeing a bunch of light primer strikes. Ammo seems to be in-spec with the gauge. Re-strike the rounds in the 329, most of them still are light hits, but insert them into the RSR and they go bang on the first time, every time.

New gun also had sticky extraction with magnum loads. By itself this could have been overlooked but my new love had just proven to be not only untrustworthy but to also have one of those annoying little habits.

After scouring the forum here as well as other sites and coming up with no obvious solutions other than aftermarket firing pins, I reached out to S&W customer service and sent the gun back to them for repair. I highlighted both the light primer strikes as well as the sticky extraction. They were kind and paid for shipping both ways. Total turn time was about 3 weeks. Their service ticket reads: Evaluate/Repair, Replace Cylinder, Repair Yoke, Replace Mainspring.

Also during the waiting time I purchased a Hogue X frame grip to try and take some of the bite out of this gun. Even with the rubber grip this gun is a handful with full house loads.

I had cleaned the gun before I sent it to S&W customer service and the barrel came back clean so either they did not test fire the weapon, or they test fired it and cleaned it. No way for me to know for sure which of those two it was, but based on the rest of this story we can probably both agree that they didn’t bother to test fire it.

Gun returned to me, take it to the range, same Issues. This time I did mark the cylinder just to confirm that the problem is not specific to one hole in the cylinder. (although they did replace the cylinder anyway)

 

[1&done]

Ok. Now what?

Time to tinker. At the range I had marked a few of the brass pieces that were giving trouble. They were showing light primer strikes in the 329 even when they were struck multiple times. Tried measuring the case head thickness with a mic but that is hard to get a good read. Any rounding of the brass at the edge of the head impacts the measurement so I can’t get good data. Check it with the case gauge and they look to be okay. <44 Rem Magnum Case & Ammunition Gauge - All New Tri-Step Face Design >

I try re-priming the “bad” brass with different primers. Federal primers give less trouble than with S&B or WLP primers. Not a surprise since they are known to be softer, but they are still not 100%. There are competition shooters that run 5# triggers with Federal primers and they have no issues. ***??

What about LR primers? (For those who do not know it, large rifle primers are the same diameter but about 10/1000 taller) Based on a quick check of ‘bad’ brass with LR primers, they seem to be 100%. Okay, that’s fine for reloads -- but where am I supposed to find factory ammo loaded with LR primers? Nowhere!

At least I have something to go on now. Primer thickness. What can I do with that?

Get back on the intewebs. S&W forum. YouTube. The Firing Line. The High Road. Read and watch as much as possible. This is one of the oldest revolver manufacturers in the world. They have to know how to make a revolver. It’s gotta be a simple fix. Right?

I tear the gun apart completely to check everything. Anything rubbing? Anything out of place? Firing pin chipped? Out of spec? Firing pin channel plugged? Lock rubbing? Maybe the cylinder lock not locking? Can’t find anything wrong. Lube up the gun well and make sure it gets put back together correctly.

For my next batch of reloads I try using SS pins. Make sure the primer pockets are as clean as an operating room. Make sure that the primers are COMPLETELY seated. Also separate by headstamp to see if it is specific brass. I also saved my bad brass from last range trip. Let’s confirm that it is not just a few pieces of out of spec brass.

Head to the range *AGAIN* This is getting time consuming --- and expensive!! I bring again both reloads and factory ammo. Same crappy result. S&W gives inconsistent results across all the ammo I feed it. 20 year old Ruger eats those same bullets and goes BANG every time. I am fuming.

 

[1&done]

More interwebs. I don’t really want to have to gunsmith a brand new gun, but I decide to buy a Cylinder and Slide extended firing pin. I am a long time subscriber to American Handgunner and C&S has a storied reputation for making awesome guns. For $15 it’s a cheap fix, right?

Replace firing pin. Range trip. I get through exactly 12 rounds before my cool new upgraded firing pin sticks in a primer and locks up the gun completely. Good thing that steel plate isn’t a pissed off elk trying to stomp on me! I try everything I can think of at the range but I can not free up the gun. Throw it in the bag and come home.

Creative use of a decapping pin and an oak dowel rod got the firing pin freed up. Amazingly, the primer was not pierced. Somehow it had managed to just grab the firing pin and hold onto it.

C&S firing pin removed. Stock firing pin put back in place.

Since I have the gun all taken apart anyway, and I have no other good ideas, I wonder if one of the locking mechanisms might be somehow slowing down the hammer. I remove the Hillary lock and the hammer blocking slide. I know that this modification is not UL approved but I am looking for anything here!! Throw me a bone.

Revisit the range. Same result. This happened last Friday. Thankfully I had a few days to cool down before S&W customer service re-opened or else I would have just lit-up the poor customer service person at the other end of the phone.

I called S&W customer service this past Monday morning. Gave them an abbreviated version of this story. They told me that their customer service center is currently closed and not accepting any incoming shipments. I asked for a refund on my purchase and then told me that they do not provide refunds. If I want a refund then I need to go back to the place where the gun was purchased.

We all know that’s a BS answer because every store now exempts ammo and guns from returns.

Later that day I made this account. My username “1&done” is a summary of my experience as a S&W customer. Pretty sure I will never buy from them again.

I consider trading the gun in to a local store. On a whim I reached out to the store that I bought the gun from and got lucky that the guy on the other end of the phone was a nice guy. He of course made it clear that they do not accept returns of firearms. He did agree to send the gun back to S&W on my behalf to see if they could get a better outcome.

So now my brand new useless gun has been handed over to them to return to S&W to try for the second time to fixed it. At this point I am out ~$1100, not counting ammo and a bunch of range trips, and don’t have a working trail gun.

I will post an update once I hear back from S&W.

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. Even if no one is still reading at this point, I still feel better.

 

[scooter123]

In regards o the C&S firing pin the reason it's sticking is because the tip has edges tat are too sharp. Take a diamond lap and reshape it to a hemispherical shape at the tip and it won't stick. Note, hand lap only for this task, take it to a bench grinder and you will be purchasing a new firing pin. As you might guess I've been there done that. Yeah C&S should do that from the get go but look at the price, 5 or 10 minutes of time for a true gunsmith to fit these pins would more than double the cost.

 

[sparkyvega]

Ain't no company out there that's perfect. Sometimes repairs can indeed be challenging and frustrating, especially on a new firearm. Seems to me you fidgeted with that 329PD quite extensively even after you zeroed in on the issue, and I wouldn't have taken my new revolver apart especially since you didn't cause the issue; I'd make darned sure S&W made it right. Good communication is paramount in such situations. Hopefully S&W will make it right and you change your handle, but if not, enjoy your Rugers.

 

[OLDSTER]

Just a little tip: Very few forum members are going to read your 3 LONG posts.

 

[6string]

Check Headspace?

First, welcome to the S&W forum.
Sorry for your troubles. What an unfortunate circumstance to bring you to this wonderful forum.

First thing I would have done is check the headspace.
Maybe I missed that part of the account? If so, please excuse the rendundancy of my post....
Just use a set of feeler gauges. They are thin leaves of precision ground steel, in increments of a couple thousandths of an inch.
They allow precise measure of the gap between two surfaces. This is especially effective for two fixed, parallel flat surfaces.

For a rimmed revolver cartridge the headspace should be just a few thousandths of an inch greater than the rim thickness.
Any more than that and misfires are common.
An extra length firing pin can address the symptom, but not this particular problem.
A bigger, or potentially more dangerous issue arises from excess headspace. When a cartridge does discharge, the case walls expand and grip the cylinder chamber, all while a gap exists between the case head and the recoil shield.
The rim face of the cartridge is driven back by the expanding gasses, but since the case walls are gripping the chamber, the case itself has to stretch to allow this to happen.
A minor symptom of excess headspace is accuracy problems.
More serious symptoms include: a shiny "ring" around the case just ahead of the rim indicating a stretched area, or in severe circumstances case head separation, and.... sticky extraction (one of the problems you describe).
Measuring for excess headspace takes less time than my description.
SAAMI specs for the 44 Magnum calls for a rim thickness of 0.060". If your headspace were less than this, you couldn't close a loaded cylinder. If your headspace exceeds maybe 0.065" you might begin to get the symptoms you describe.

I hope this might be of some help.

Best Regards,
Jim

 

[moralem]

Just a little tip: Very few forum members are going to read your 3 LONG posts.

I don’t know, I found it entertaining this morning on the patio with a cup of tea....made my worries fade away.

 

[uncleted327]

So my summation of that incredibly long speech is you had an issue with your gun, S&W took it back and replaced a bunch of stuff on their dime. It still had an issue but since S&W isn't accepting guns right now and refused to give you a refund on your say so, which they don't do BTW, you decided that the entire company and all their products are bad and you wanted everyone else to know it...I'd say they have done well by you so far, and that when their shop reopens for service again they would pay for shipping a second time and try again to solve the issue. Nobody likes having to have something new repaired, but it happens. S&W doesn't give refunds, if they can't repair a gun they will give you another gun. So either wait for the shop to reopen like everyone else is having to or sell it and go buy a Ruger if they're infallible. I didn't read one thing in that diatribe that they refused to do for you other than give you a refund because you don't want to wait...

 

[steelslaver]

I agree with the check head space. I would also check for end shake. Place an empty piece of brass in the cylinder and close it up with the case at the fire position. Press cylinder back and find the largest feeler gauge that will just slip between case head and recoil shield. Then press the cylinder forward and measure again. How much change. Any change would be an end shake measurement. Usually measured between the barrel and front cylinder face, but the result should be the same. Over .002 end shake is to much. Cylinder moves forward during firing and uses up firing pin energy. The maximum distance between case head and recoil shield should be no more than .024 and to me thats a lot. You need some for variations in rim thickness. With no case in chamber from rear of cylinder to recoil shield per SAAMI is .060 to .074and rims should be between .048 and .059. To get .024 you would need the thinnest rim possible and the largest head space acceptable. Something more in the line of .010 is normal.

Your story of thicker primers and longer firing pin indicates a large headspace. Rim thickness can pretty well be ruled out by multiple brands of ammo.

While it is possible to get killed by a bull elk it would take quite a bit of effort on your part to have that happen. Best methods are surround a herd of elk and be the guy on the path they decide to use for escape or keep getting closer and closer to a bull in rut and when he snorts at you just keep on getting closer.

BTW, I have over 5o S&W revolvers from 100+ year old top breaks. to 4 of the scandium guns and they all fire reliably. S&W will make it right.

 

[OKFC05]

I bought a 646 for IDPA about 15 years ago that had all the same symptoms as the OP.
First thing I did was get out the gauges and measure everything on the gun. The cylinder had excessive headspace AND the front gap was already at max. I called CS, gave the measurements, and stated I wanted to use the gun for IDPA. CS sent shipping label and said to include a detailed letter of measurements and what I wanted done.
S&W pulled the barrel, set headspace and BC gap to specs, and returned N/C.
Function was then reliable.
Then I did my thing with competition springs and hand-lapped C&S firing pin to set up for IDPA, and installed red FO front sight.
Ran flawlessly; still does whenever I get it out.

Due to rule changes in IDPA, I seldom shoot it in competition now, preferring to use optional 130 pf .38 with speedloaders in a Model 66 to save stress on aging hands.

 

[THEmodelof1989]

Patience young padawon.

There is a pandemic raging outside, and the entire world has slowed way down. The fact that you can't have immediate satisfaction is the standard for everyone right now, so there really isn't much reason to write a novel about how you were done wrong.

Also, most members here really like S&W... obviously... and most members here think S&W customer service is pretty good. Between these two facts, I don't think you came to the right place for sympathy.

 

[gerhard1]

The same thing happened with a S&W 986 that I have. With hard primers like Winchester, it had persistent light hammer strikes. Like you, 1&done, I sent it in to Springfield, and it came back with the same problem.

I took it a gunsmith in Oklahoma and he put a heavier mainspring and a TK firing pin that was longer than the factory one.It is much improved. I hope he sees this thread and weighs in, as I think he is pretty good. He helped me.

Dave??

 

[growr]

To the OP:

Steelslayers comments are spot on.

I have had nothing but the finest treatment from S&W on the few occasions I needed to use them.

Like all Customer Service personnel so much of YOUR treatment is reflected on how you treat THEM!

Nothing man made is flawless in every example.

Randy

 

[Protocall_Design]

S&W has had a lot of borderline too short firing pins for decades, going well back into the hammer nose years. It sounds like that is the problem in this case. S&W will not put a longer firing pin in the gun, even if that would fix it.

I prefer the Power Custom extended firing pins. One of those would likely help a lot.

Scooter123 has good advice about making the tip of the firing pin hemishperical. That shape works the best for reliable ignition.

Steelslaver has good advice about headspace and endshake.

Others have given various and sundry good advice as well.

I think these are the most likely problems with your gun, judging by the evidence. No one can say for sure without the gun on their bench. My opinion is worth every dollar you paid for it.

 

[hogblue]

The only thing I was able to extrapolate from the OP’s post is that he is a lurker of our forum and thinks highly of Ruger handguns.

Nevermind giving Smith and Wesson an opportunity to revisit his issue.

 

[armorer951]

1101

Headspace and firing pin advice provided is very good. Many of the factory firing pins measure below .490".

I have had good results with the newer designed Apex pins, which are around .510", and the Power Custom pins. Just a heads up to everyone about Cylinder and Slide firing pins, which are also .510", do not dry fire with them without snap caps, as they are prone to breakage.

As always, be sure to test fire the revolver after replacing this critical internal part.

________________________________________________

Customer Service:

My opinion about the prevailing issues with S&W Customer Service is that things have changed. Years ago, the people who were repairing the returned guns used their vast knowledge of the inner workings of the firearms to diagnose specific problems and to repair them properly. Back then, the guns were repaired by the experienced fitters who assembled them.

Nowadays, I think repair techs are often simply "exchanging" or replacing parts with the notion that somehow, the new replacement part will fix the reported issue. Many times this "modular" repair approach is not coupled with an actual test firing. Such live testing is always required to ensure the repair has been successful, and if done, would end the repeated cycle of returns. Finally, there is no final "arbiter" in this whole process. A knowledgeable, experienced tech who checks all of the finished repairs and determines that the issue has been resolved successfully......without further cosmetic harm being done to the gun. To me, this is kind of a "hit and miss" approach to solving mechanical problems, which does both harm to the gun, and to the company's customer base.

 

[shocker]

Patience young padawon.

There is a pandemic raging outside, and the entire world has slowed way down. The fact that you can't have immediate satisfaction is the standard for everyone right now, so there really isn't much reason to write a novel about how you were done wrong.

No kidding. The lease on my pickup ends in a week, and none of the local dealers has much if any inventory to choose from. I would never have believed America could run out of pickup trucks, but it's happened.

 

[mckenney99]

I realize this is a Smith & Wesson Forum, but I believe the OP and others have a legitimate gripe, while it may come off as a bit of a rant. We have all seen and heard enough complaints about the lack of quality control of products coming from Smith. Yes I realize that this is the internet and we MOSTLY hear the gripes. But S&W does seem to recognize they have a problem and seem to be willing to re-examine problem firearms by paying for the return shipping of the firearm for examination. However, there is NO excuse for a returned firearm to be returned with the same issues or even worse new issues after the firearm has supposedly been worked on by one of their technicians. Having to return, a new production firearm multiple times is unacceptable, it isn't as if this is a new business for them. To constantly give Smith & Wesson a pass on shoddy workmanship during production and after re-examination, just because this is a Smith & Wesson Forum does not benefit the brand or it's customers.

 

[Tytan01]

1&Done is not alone with his being "hosed" by S&W shop / Customer Service.

I sent a Model 28 in for tuning and re-bluing back in March. In Mid April they contacted me and said they couldn't do the tune job because of the tapered barrel. They can only do it on the straight barrels.

So IRK #1 as I had talked to a rep on the phone in February about the work I wanted, we had went over the options and no mention was made of the barrel restrictions.

Fast Forward to June and I'm still waiting on the Bluing to get done. I finally was forced to call and ask if there was an update. "No information yet on your gun but we'll bill your card when it's ready to ship".

2 weeks ago my card gets billed and I get a "work order" in the mail for work done.
Test firing and standard polish & blue.

I call to follow up and the tech tells me that it will be an additional 6-8 weeks before the gun ACTUALLY gets worked on and shipped. And then he goes into a litany of reasons for all the delays. Of course Covid is at the top of the list. Then vacations, then shop shutdowns for inventory then shop shutdowns for re-tooling...so on and so forth.

IRK#2 - After my left eye stopped twitching....I put my crushed cell phone down and went out to buy another gun in order to take my mind off of wanting to drive to S&W and take a dump on the Company President's desk.

IRK#3 - I end up buying ANOTHER Model 29